SE's stance on Windower

[Chriscoffey]

If you believe that you are not an experienced player, so yes, let me tell you how it is: that's bullshit. You got that from a forum thread on a private FFXI server, and who knows how it would behave differently on there. That's assuming that guy isn't full of shit anyway, which I'm not convinced of.



Further proof you have absolutely no clue what the hell you're talking about. There was nothing "out of sync" because there was no "sync" to be out of. Sorting packets means a command issued to the server if you change the sorting in your inventory. There is no automatic, regular sorting process, it happens when the user issues the command. There is nothing to synchronize.

LightLuggage sends a sorting command only when a new item comes into your inventory, that's it. Quite possibly the private server fucked up by sending that command to trigger it permanently.



Well, if you have no idea how it was changed, why the hell are you arguing about how it's been years ago (disregarding the fact that it's never been like that)? Windower, as it is, is undetectable, which is all that was stated, regardless of how it used to be. So stop misleading everyone with your half-informed and non-intelligent rants. You're a perfect example for the fact that old players don't have to be experienced or smart players.

I was stating something that was to disprove this notion that it wasn't detectable by ANY means during the course of it's history. That is a perfect rebuttal to your half-ass idiocy in that reply you just made against me.

You are a prime example of someone trying to tip-toe around this saying it never could have been possible at anytime. I listed an example of how this was possible in the past and you just denounce it. I said SE could ban you for anything at anytime. Are you going to argue that isn't possible in the EULA as well?

In that article it didn't state the server fucked up it stated that WINDOWER LIGHT LUGGAGE was fucked up when coded. I think as stupid as you make me out to be you might want to learn 1st grade reading comprehension.

[Arcon]

You are a prime example of someone trying to tip-toe around this saying it never could have been possible at anytime. I listed an example of how this was possible in the past and you just denounce it.

First of all, I'm not tip-toeing around anything, it doesn't happen. Ever. It didn't happen. Ever. I'm saying you're full of shit. I'm saying the poster on that forum is full of shit.

Secondly, that's not the issue. It's not possible. Regardless of whether or not it used to be possible, that's not the fucking issue. It was stated that "Windower is undetectable" and you came in on your high horse going "But that guy said! yaddayadda Don't talk to us pros like you know shit!". Even if that was true it would be completely besides the fucking point. But at least then I wouldn't be giving you a hard time about it.

I said SE could ban you for anything at anytime. Are you going to argue that isn't possible in the EULA as well?

What the fuck? Deflecting much? That's not the issue. If I would disagree with that, I would argue it. Since I'm not, I don't.

In that article it didn't state the server fucked up it stated that WINDOWER LIGHT LUGGAGE was fucked up when coded. I think as stupid as you make me out to be you might want to learn 1st grade reading comprehension.

I read and understood what he said. I told you it was bullshit. Did you read and comprehend that?

But ok, if you believe him, then explain two things to to me. Firstly, how does that he know that LL is fucked up? How does he know how it was coded? How does he even know how it works?

And secondly, explain to me how it suddenly got better when, according to that guy, "the new server [started] auto-sorting for you"? How would LL know that the server is now autosorting, if it was just spamming sort-requests to the server? Because he doesn't mention it, he just said "it stopped, when the server was fixed". That alone hints at it being their fault, and not LL's fault.

I know logical answers to those questions pointing at the private server being fucked up, not LightLuggage. The question is, do you know any answers hinting the other way? If yes, by all means, lay it on me. Lecture me, point out what a noob I am so everyone can laugh at me. If no, just shut up before you embarrass yourself even more.

[Chriscoffey]

First of all, I'm not tip-toeing around anything, it doesn't happen. Ever. It didn't happen. Ever. I'm saying you're full of shit. I'm saying the poster on that forum is full of shit.

Secondly, that's not the issue. It's not possible. Regardless of whether or not it used to be possible, that's not the fucking issue. It was stated that "Windower is undetectable" and you came in on your high horse going "But that guy said! yaddayadda Don't talk to us pros like you know shit!". Even if that was true it would be completely besides the fucking point. But at least then I wouldn't be giving you a hard time about it.



What the fuck? Deflecting much? That's not the issue. If I would disagree with that, I would argue it. Since I'm not, I don't.



I read and understood what he said. I told you it was bullshit. Did you read and comprehend that?

But ok, if you believe him, then explain two things to to me. Firstly, how does that he know that LL is fucked up? How does he know how it was coded? How does he even know how it works?

And secondly, explain to me how it suddenly got better when, according to that guy, "the new server [started] auto-sorting for you"? How would LL know that the server is now autosorting, if it was just spamming sort-requests to the server? Because he doesn't mention it, he just said "it stopped, when the server was fixed". That alone hints at it being their fault, and not LL's fault.

I know logical answers to those questions pointing at the private server being fucked up, not LightLuggage. The question is, do you know any answers hinting the other way? If yes, by all means, lay it on me. Lecture me, point out what a noob I am so everyone can laugh at me. If no, just shut up before you embarrass yourself even more.

The answer is quite simple: server networking load. If you had an ounce of understanding about reverse engineering for Project XI you would have understood what the guy was conveying. Quite simply put the private server isn't as efficient in handling networking related issues like the main server is because they don't have the code for it.

The private server was put together from information gathered yet wasn't as effective at handling this issue. That is the reason they couldn't handle massive amount of people online like the primary servers can. This is the reason the packet spamming issue with LL became apparent and why it COULD BE USED to detect that you could be using a third party program like windower. It had nothing to do with the server injecting packets back client side since they were from the client itself. This can be considered abnormal by a client user and why i said it could be detected while you went off on a tangent how stupid I am.

Let me give you an example: Person A, Person B, Person C, Person D, Person E. Person B is using windower with LL and person E manually sorts(unloaded plugin).These all send and receive packets back and forth to the server. In this example items are being dropped into the person inventory, however, Person B's client is spamming the packets which is abnormal compared to the others when items drop in their inventory. This is "out of sync" with how the others handle inventory sorting behavior. Person E is no more detectable than Person A,C,or D but they aren't using LL either. Has this sunk in your mind yet or you still arguing I'm full of shit?

I am going to go out on a limb here make the assumption you would argue that they can't detect POS hacking either because HEY THAT'S CLIENT SIDE ALSO. SE banned people for using that and they couldn't officially have proof you were hacking or just lagging really bad but they still banned the hell out of people for it.

With this being said and seeing as this is derailing the topic somewhat you can think what you will or how retarded I am at this point. Go find yourself a cookie and pat yourself on the back.

[Arcon]

The answer is quite simple: server networking load. If you had an ounce of understanding about reverse engineering for Project XI you would have understood what the guy was conveying.

And if you had an ounce of your aforementioned reading comprehension, you would have understood what I was conveying. I told you, it's a lie. LL doesn't spam packets. Never did.

Also, in your entire post you just tried to show me how it could be detected (if it was buggy), you never really answered my questions. But since I'm a nice guy, I'll do it for you.

LL only sends one sorting packet to the server, and only at one point: When an item drops into your inventory. It's event-based. It will never send packets if it doesn't find an item entering your inventoy.

The problem is with the reverse engineering. The best explanation for it is that they had a bug, that would permanently update a users inventory, meaning it would permanently trigger LL's effect. That's also why LL suddenly stopped when they updated their server. This doesn't happen in real FFXI. Hence, it was never an issue.

Let me give you an example: Person A, Person B, Person C, Person D, Person E. Person B is using windower with LL and person E manually sorts(unloaded plugin).These all send and receive packets back and forth to the server. In this example items are being dropped into the person inventory, however, Person B's client is spamming the packets which is abnormal compared to the others when items drop in their inventory. This is "out of sync" with how the others handle inventory sorting behavior. Person E is no more detectable than Person A,C,or D but they aren't using LL either. Has this sunk in your mind yet or you still arguing I'm full of shit?

Hard to argue around it. I understand what you're trying to say, but that wasn't my point. My point was, it wasn't LL's fault. LL's trigger was activated permanently, which made it send packets permanently. Blame failXI, not Windower.

Also, what you're describing is still not "out of sync". It's automated behaviour that humans couldn't imitate (unless they press a button 120 times per second. There is no synchronization between the players.

I am going to go out on a limb here make the assumption you would argue that they can't detect POS hacking either because HEY THAT'S CLIENT SIDE ALSO. SE banned people for using that and they couldn't officially have proof you were hacking or just lagging really bad but they still banned the hell out of people for it.

You like deflecting with weird examples, it seems. False, they can detect it, and they can also employ automatic measures to detect whether it was lag or not (the server can know when a player is lagging). So they can actually know for a fact whether or not someone pos hacked. A server has a player's movement speed available to them, so they know how far they can get in a certain time interval. If they time it from the moment a person is lagging and find they moved further than they could have in that interval, they know a person is lagging.

[Shadowsong]

Even POS hacking nowadays is pretty much undetectible, but that is mainly due to laziness. I do seem to recall people getting caught in the past before from zoning too quickly (zoning into Konschstat, then magically to Valkurm in 3 seconds)
As long as you cast Invisible, or POS hack underground, Ull pretty much never get caught. Its people physically seeing the hack that would snag someone.

[Tohihroyu]

^
And you post this where GM's can see? very smart move,bro.

[Skirata]

Hello everyone and thank you all for posting your views on this matter. Just to clarify, the use of any third party program that interacts with the game would be a violation, which can be reviewed in the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement under sections 2.1, 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7. Should you have evidence of any third party program being used, you can report it to the GMs or the Special Task Force directly here. We will be closing the thread at this time, since the initial question has been answered. Thank you for your inquiry into our policies, and have a great day.