AF3 Body...

[Jamesy]

raksha i dont have a link to testing because personally i never looked for it i was just setting a rough idea of what i have experienced when the body piece was equipped.

i play scholar about 75% of the time and almost every event i do on sch i see a spell or two generate no enmity mostly its on nukes its most likely the same for all spells its just noticed more with nukes for me because i do nuke quite a bit.

[Raksha]

raksha i dont have a link to testing because personally i never looked for it i was just setting a rough idea of what i have experienced when the body piece was equipped.

i play scholar about 75% of the time and almost every event i do on sch i see a spell or two generate no enmity mostly its on nukes its most likely the same for all spells its just noticed more with nukes for me because i do nuke quite a bit.

Not to have a pissing contest, but I play SCH about 99% of the time, and I haven't noticed any particularly strange enmity occurences. If i do have enmity problems (which I rarely ever have) I have a ~-40 enmity set I can swap to.

If the body does occasionally cause your spells to generate 0 (or 1) enmity, great.

[Zhronne]

Yeah and yet still no one can provide me with a link to these tests.

...
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, or maybe I'm just missing some subtext in your posts? I'm pretty confused atm D:

The original test was pretty moot, more a collection of people reporting strange occurencies with their enmity.

Which means, there was no real tests (for which I mean something with a considerable amount of attempts in a controllable environment) but mostly people reporting that thing happening.
I also added that I had never experienced it myself until a few weeks ago, when it happened TWO times, in pretty similar situations, and I Can't find any other possible explanation to what happened other than "something" procced making so my spell generated either 0 enmity or a very very small amount of enmity.

You never experienced it yourself?
Not saying that has to be 100% the effect on the body, but I see no other explanations for what other people have reported and what has happened to ME. I could have thought it was just people influencing each other, until it happened to me.
Could there be another explanation to what has happened to me? Maybe, help me find it then! I can't think of anything else. Just randon emnity bug that has nothing to do with AF3 body? Could be I guess, but when I look at it from a point of view concerning % chances, it seems more likely for it to be the set bonus than a random and mysterious never-seen-before enmity bug.

[Raksha]

...
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, or maybe I'm just missing some subtext in your posts? I'm pretty confused atm D:


Which means, there was no real tests (for which I mean something with a considerable amount of attempts in a controllable environment) but mostly people reporting that thing happening.

People report strange things all the time. Doesn't mean they are lying, they could just be mistaken. There's a reason why we use reason and and the scientific method, it's so we can tell things which exist from things which don't exist.

I also added that I had never experienced it myself until a few weeks ago, when it happened TWO times, in pretty similar situations, and I Can't find any other possible explanation to what happened other than "something" procced making so my spell generated either 0 enmity or a very very small amount of enmity.

You never experienced it yourself?
Not saying that has to be 100% the effect on the body, but I see no other explanations for what other people have reported and what has happened to ME. I could have thought it was just people influencing each other, until it happened to me.
Could there be another explanation to what has happened to me? Maybe, help me find it then! I can't think of anything else. Just randon emnity bug that has nothing to do with AF3 body? Could be I guess, but when I look at it from a point of view concerning % chances, it seems more likely for it to be the set bonus than a random and mysterious never-seen-before enmity bug.

So what exactly happened that causes you to believe that af3 body gives an occasional enmity free spell? Which spell were you casting? which mob were you fighting? Who were your other party members? You say it happened twice? was it on the same mob? during the same fight?

And as for "noticing it" during a fight, what exactly is there to notice? You cast a spell and don't pull hate? I do that all the time. How do we distinguish a hate-free spell from a regular one? (Hint: you probably can't in the middle of a battle.)

SE has recently added a piece of gear that "occasionally causes spells to generate no enmity" (or w/e the wording is). So we know the mechanic exists, the question remains though is that effect also on SCH af3 body? No one is going to know for sure without controlled tests.

[Zhronne]

People report strange things all the time.

Absolutely.
But when you see all sort of people (we're not talking about 2 here, eh) posting on KI, FFXIAH, Alla, official forums, BG etc and all reporting the same effect you kinda start thinking which are the odds that they're all the same 2 people using fake accounts, or under mass-hallucination, or that maybe *hint hint* what they're reporting exists and it's not a random occurrence.

Doesn't mean they are lying, they could just be mistaken.

Absolutely.
But please find another explanation for what I described, I'm open to suggestions.

So what exactly happened that causes you to believe that af3 body gives an occasional enmity free spell?

I wrote it above.

Which spell were you casting? which mob were you fighting?

Don't remember the spell on the first one, it was a nuke though. No debuff or other stuff. I clearly remember it was a nice Blizzard IV the second time, the target was different. Once it was a NM in Abyssea - Attohwa (I think Granite Borer?) and the other time it was a jelly NM in Abyssea - Konschtat (the one that drops Savant's Treatise)

Who were your other party members?

Me, the above mentioned Ninja and a BRD on the first NM, me and the Ninja alone on the second.

You say it happened twice? was it on the same mob? during the same fight?

Yes.
No.
No.

And as for "noticing it" during a fight, what exactly is there to notice?

Simply said, if that NIN wasn't back tanking and the fight hadn't just started, I would have never noticed it.
When I pull hate over a tank it's not because of a single spell, but because of all of the ones I cast until that point.
Having a single spell that generates no enmity would only delay the moment I get enmity.
Still morning-dead brain, let me try with an example:

-------------flow of time---------------->
spell 1, spell 2, spell 3, spell 4, spell 5, !!! you get hate on you
spell 1, spell 2, spell 3, spell 4, spell 5 (body proc), spell 6 you get hate on you

This is what would happen to me.
Supposing this is true, it's no surprise I never noticed it before, especially outside of abyssea. (altough the biggest reason for me is that I don't often get a chance to play SCH tbh)

You cast a spell and don't pull hate?

The monster had just been pulled/popped, no action (aside from maybe a couple of debuffs) had been performed on it.
No way I wouldn't pull hate on it in those circumstances with the amount of damage I did with those spells.

How do we distinguish a hate-free spell from a regular one? (Hint: you probably can't in the middle of a battle.)

It's almost impossible, altough maybe Libra could help with that.
But I guess it's almost impossible otherwise, and the very peculiar situation I was in allowed me to tell it because the fight had just started. Were I in the middle of a normal fight, I would have just assumed that the tank was doing his job and keeping his enmity above mine, I would have never thought my spell generated no enmity (hence: I would have never noticed, see above)

SE has recently added a piece of gear that "occasionally causes spells to generate no enmity" (or w/e the wording is). So we know the mechanic exists

Oh... uhm I missed that, or maybe I just forgot about it after reading in dat mines.


Once more, I'm not saying it has to be 100% that way, just that what happened to me was very strange and I can't find any other explanation, other than... uhm... a random bug or something? But which are the odds of that happening seriously?

[Ank]

People report strange things all the time. Doesn't mean they are lying, they could just be mistaken. There's a reason why we use reason and and the scientific method, it's so we can tell things which exist from things which don't exist.

In other words, anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Observation leads to hypothesis.
You observe what you believe to be hate free spells. You don't then state as fact that you have hate free spells. You attempt prove your hypothesis.

So far the only thing that has given real credence, that I've seen please don't link that ffxiah thread again, to this hypothesis is the introduction of that item that claims to do exactly that.
Just to be clear though, I'm not arguing against the possibility.

[Zhronne]

I'm not particularly arguing for or against the possibility either, I'm just saying that:
1) given the current situation and the "hints" given to us by SE
2) given the series of possible buffs that have been safely ruled out due to semi-extensive testing
3) given the amount of people reporting the same or very similar occurrencies

It all seems particularly "fitting" to say the least. The fact it does seem to fit like a perfect piece of the puzzle doesn't necessarily mean things are to be that way, and the "Self-fulfilling prophecy" mechanism might be misleading some of us.
Still... this all seems way too perfectly fitting for all of these things to be just coincidences.

[Raksha]

I don't reall ffxiah much, but I read BG all the time, and here on the official forums is the first time I've ever heard this 0 enmity theory.

Zhronne I agree that's a strange occurence that happened to you, do you happen to remember how much damage those nukes did? Were you wearing any -enmity gear at all? Did the ninja have a good +enmity set? Do those mobs have particularly strange hate mechanics? Are you sure the ninja wasn't doing other stuff? (trying to proc with Ni nukes or debuffs, for instance?) Did the BRD cast Adventurer's Dirge on you? Did he cast Foe Sirvante on the NIN?


If you could provide the ffxiah thread i would appreciate it. I think i found it but I have to go buy a new rim for my car so I can't read it at the moment.

[Motenten]

It would seem to be fairly easy to test.

Need 3 people. Can be done with two if care is taken to balance initial enmity and the sch doesn't use the AF3 body during initial enmity setup.

1) Puller (any)
2) Rdm
3) Sch/rdm

Ensure mobs always hit for 0 dmg.

Puller pulls. Rdm gets on hate list with Dispel (1 CE/300 VE), then puller can zone (can do with mandys right outside Windy).
Wait out the VE decay time (5 seconds) so rdm is left with only the 1 CE.
Sch then casts Dispel (1 CE/300 VE). If sch pulls hate, there was no 0-enmity proc. Rdm can Dispel again to get hate back (should have 1 CE more than the sch), and wait out the VE decay.

Each cycle, the rdm should be 1 CE higher than the sch after VE decays. If the sch is -ever- able to cast Dispel without pulling hate, that's evidence of a 0-enmity proc.

It's possible that a "0" enmity proc still generates 1 CE (fundamental minimum). In that case, have the rdm cast Dispel an additional time so that there's a 2 CE lead over the sch, and 1 CE won't pull hate.

If no evidence of 0-enmity procs occurs, then try again with the rdm at a greater lead over the sch. Dispel generates 300 VE, so the rdm may cast two en-spells for 160 CE (slightly more than half the hate that Dispel will generate). If the sch ever fails to take hate, that's evidence of a hate reduction proc that reduced enmity by at least ~50%.

Can repeat as necessary to narrow down the enmity reduction.

[Raksha]

It would seem to be fairly easy to test.

Need 3 people. Can be done with two if care is taken to balance initial enmity and the sch doesn't use the AF3 body during initial enmity setup.

1) Puller (any)
2) Rdm
3) Sch/rdm

Ensure mobs always hit for 0 dmg.

Puller pulls. Rdm gets on hate list with Dispel (1 CE/300 VE), then puller can zone (can do with mandys right outside Windy).
Wait out the VE decay time (5 seconds) so rdm is left with only the 1 CE.
Sch then casts Dispel (1 CE/300 VE). If sch pulls hate, there was no 0-enmity proc. Rdm can Dispel again to get hate back (should have 1 CE more than the sch), and wait out the VE decay.

Each cycle, the rdm should be 1 CE higher than the sch after VE decays. If the sch is -ever- able to cast Dispel without pulling hate, that's evidence of a 0-enmity proc.

It's possible that a "0" enmity proc still generates 1 CE (fundamental minimum). In that case, have the rdm cast Dispel an additional time so that there's a 2 CE lead over the sch, and 1 CE won't pull hate.

If no evidence of 0-enmity procs occurs, then try again with the rdm at a greater lead over the sch. Dispel generates 300 VE, so the rdm may cast two en-spells for 160 CE (slightly more than half the hate that Dispel will generate). If the sch ever fails to take hate, that's evidence of a hate reduction proc that reduced enmity by at least ~50%.

Can repeat as necessary to narrow down the enmity reduction.

This was my idea of a test exactly (i was going to use 2 SCHs though, but either works). Byrth left the country and I work all of the time so I haven't been able to talk to him about it yet.