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  1. #11
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    2,350
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Really need to add RDM to Regen III / IV. SCH can keep Regen V and the super effects of LA. And WHM has Cure V and Solstice.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    314
    Character
    Jeral
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    This is ridiculous. White Mage has had regen mastery since day one and now SCH not only has much more powerful regen effects but a whole extra tier over White Mage? It's beyond rational comprehension, it really is.

    I can appreciate that SCH has some issues with healing, I really can. We're in a transition period and SE clearly hasn't thought things through - some jobs are suffering, whatever your perspective on who needs what and so on. However, that does not magically (excuse the pun) give SCH the right to outright steal mastery of an entire line of spells from White Mage. I'm stuggling not to use the word "ridiculous" again, but there's really no other way of describing it.

    SCH has always had trouble being unique because, let's face it, SCH is not unique. It's a job being pressed into a hole that's far too small for it. This is YET ANOTHER instance of SCH outright pilfering things from other jobs in a desperate attempt to make itself relevant, and I'm certain it won't be the last. Regen needs fixing across the board - not just new tiers but a complete overhaul - and giving SCH yet another so-called "speciality" (frankly what doesn't it claim as a speciality?) in Regen is not helping anyone. It's restricting the development of other jobs, it's demonstrating a terrible lack of creativity, and it's plain wrong.

    Ridiculous, absurd, nonsensical, outright offensive - take your pick of adjectives while I quietly fume in the corner for what seems the thousandth time due to SCH.
    (3)

  3. #13
    Player Daniel_Hatcher's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    2,577
    Character
    Alvian
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 12
    So much ; ; over something clearly SE had in mind when they introduced SCH... Hello Regen and Regen II.

    WHM is so powerful, WAH!!! We want more power, but don't even think about giving our spells like Cure V away. Seriously, I'd rather a straight Cure V over Regen.. I propose a trade off. You can have crappy Regen V we'll have Cure V.

    What's that? No chance! Oh, okay. We'll just have no means of curing other than the blatantly weak Cure IV. Seriously, priorities straight please!
    (5)
    Last edited by Daniel_Hatcher; 11-28-2011 at 02:47 AM.

  4. #14
    Player
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    Mar 2011
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    うぃんだす
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    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerbob View Post
    This is ridiculous. White Mage has had regen mastery since day one and now SCH not only has much more powerful regen effects but a whole extra tier over White Mage? It's beyond rational comprehension, it really is.
    Actually, Regen was originally a RDM only spell.
    February 5, 2003 Update If you cannot read Japanese, first line is saying new magic for RDM added. Regen Lv21 and Refresh Lv41
    In the level 70 cap update, WHM was given Regen, Regen II, and Regen III
    July 17, 2003 Update
    (5)

  5. #15
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    314
    Character
    Jeral
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    I stand corrected on the "from day one" comment but really, I think it's clear exactly what I was trying to say there. Regen has been White Mage's speciality since that level 70 cap update, reinforced with merit and gear choices along the way and by the lack of powerful regen magic for other jobs. It's very well established now.

    This isn't a matter of White Mage becoming more powerful, it's about SCH's sticky fingers and the fact that White Mage should continue to be the best at one of its speciality lines of spells. If SCH was suddenly given all the tier II enfeebles and a new set of tier III ones, a trait to vastly increase sticking rate, and then have the audacity to claim that it was the new best enfeebler - there'd be outrage. This is no different.

    Regardless of how people feel about White Mage, this is a shining example of a job not getting a spell or capability because SCH has got it first for whatever reason, and that is wrong. There's also the much bigger picture - Regen has been enhanced for SCH, and now it won't be properly fixed for White Mage and Red Mage because, hilariously and ironically, that would be copying SCH. Regen is nearly useless for those two jobs (who you've demonstrated have had them for nearly a decade) for various reasons, but now SCH has abruptly claimed mastery over them - and there was so much potential. People really cannot suggest that this makes sense.

    I know that I'm whining and I appreciate that there is a small irony in that I'm arguing for White Mage to have new spells when it is already a strong job, but this is about the principle of the thing, and the aftermath for regen as a whole, rather than just about White Mage. I strongly feel that this goes deeper than that.
    (3)

  6. #16
    Player
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    Aug 2011
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    1,749
    The huge casting time reduction on Regen spells will apply to all jobs. It's not limited to Light Arts or anything, it's a change in the spells themselves. Casting time has been a big pitfall for Regen spells once Cures overtook them for MP efficiency (on White Mage), so a casting time adjustment is very welcome.

    Also, White Mage's mastery of the Regen line falls pretty flat compared to White Mage's super-duper-double mastery of the far less niche Cure line. It is entirely possible the Development Bros thought things over and decided the best way to make Regen spells more useful would be to make a job with less awesome cures cast them.

    I wouldn't mind having Regen V on White Mage, because bigger numbers are always better, but I'm not going to pretend it's presence or absence has much effect on anything. I don't think "Somebody took my thingy." really holds that much gravitas, so I see no reason not make some other job Grand Regen Master Flash or whatever.
    (3)

  7. #17
    Player
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok
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    126
    This thread seriously has me laughing.

    White Mage does NOT need Regen V. How many White Mages even cast Regen these days...? I do when the situation calls for it, but otherwise, guess what's preferred? Our sheer curing strength that no other job compares with, not our ability to use Regen. Scholar is an "over time" job, they SHOULD have mastery of the Regen spell-line, and I had a hunch they would long ago when they learned Regen I + II earlier than White Mage (just a hunch). Considering Regen III is being lowered from SCH83 to SCH59, they're making it clear.

    As a career White Mage who has been playing for years, I was one of the people who ALSO suggested Regen V (See my SCH Feedback thread) to be given to Scholar, and this is coming from a career White Mage. It doesn't bother me in the SLIGHTEST that WHM's best Regen is Regen IV. What's unacceptable is RDM only having Regen II, they should have at least tier III at this point, IV would be nifty, but knowing SE, that won't happen, so I'd expect tier III just to be realistic.

    White Mage MAY have been a "regen master" at 75, but here's why: They needed it, Red Mage didn't. Nobody invited them over Red Mages due to sheer MP "batteries" that RDM possessed and it was a way to conserve MP when you could justify an over-time cure.
    (6)
    WAR, WHM, BLM, RDM, DRK, BRD, SMN, BLU, SCH, GEO, RUN 99

  8. #18
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    314
    Character
    Jeral
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    The casting time reduction isn't really the point (though it is about time and most welcome). SCH having access to higher tier regen magic and the bonus effects of Light Arts is the primary thing I'm talking about.

    SCH doesn't need Regen V, either. To do what people seem to want it to do - main heal in the place of a White Mage - Cure V would be necessary, or something along those lines as has been discussed at length elsewhere. The point is not whether any job needs Regen V - and to be honest, most spells that jobs get aren't necessary but just nice. Some are not so nice... cough Cura III cough...

    I can appreciate that SCH can appear as an "over time" job, as much as I may disagree that such a definition has to encompass Regen considering the fact that they already have two unique over time effects, but that doesn't give it the right to immediately lay claim to spells that other jobs are, and should continue to be, the best at. The very fact that SCH has claimed Regen for its own means that we're never going to see Regen fixed for other jobs. Yes, at the moment Regen is pretty dire to say the least for both RDM and WHM. It doesn't have to be - a few tweaks and Regen can be an excellent pseudo-mitigation tool and regain its status as a highly efficient, low enmity effect. But now that won't happen.

    I am also a career White Mage (regardless of what my profile thing may say - I looked at it once, it refused to change my displayed job and so I left it at that). I can also see the potential value of Regen with a few modifications. The fact that Regen is no use to us now is an indication that it needs to be fixed across the board, not confined to a single job. SE seems to think SCH needs help - fair enough. That help does not have to be a line of spells that has, for a very long time, belonged to one job. SCH has already taken enough.
    (0)

  9. #19
    Player Daniel_Hatcher's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    San d'Oria
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    2,577
    Character
    Alvian
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerbob View Post
    The casting time reduction isn't really the point (though it is about time and most welcome). SCH having access to higher tier regen magic and the bonus effects of Light Arts is the primary thing I'm talking about.

    SCH doesn't need Regen V, either. To do what people seem to want it to do - main heal in the place of a White Mage - Cure V would be necessary, or something along those lines as has been discussed at length elsewhere. The point is not whether any job needs Regen V - and to be honest, most spells that jobs get aren't necessary but just nice. Some are not so nice... cough Cura III cough...

    I can appreciate that SCH can appear as an "over time" job, as much as I may disagree that such a definition has to encompass Regen considering the fact that they already have two unique over time effects, but that doesn't give it the right to immediately lay claim to spells that other jobs are, and should continue to be, the best at. The very fact that SCH has claimed Regen for its own means that we're never going to see Regen fixed for other jobs. Yes, at the moment Regen is pretty dire to say the least for both RDM and WHM. It doesn't have to be - a few tweaks and Regen can be an excellent pseudo-mitigation tool and regain its status as a highly efficient, low enmity effect. But now that won't happen.

    I am also a career White Mage (regardless of what my profile thing may say - I looked at it once, it refused to change my displayed job and so I left it at that). I can also see the potential value of Regen with a few modifications. The fact that Regen is no use to us now is an indication that it needs to be fixed across the board, not confined to a single job. SE seems to think SCH needs help - fair enough. That help does not have to be a line of spells that has, for a very long time, belonged to one job. SCH has already taken enough.
    You keep saying this... The only thing WHM has is Regen Merits and a few pieces of equipment (Which SCH also has) over any other job. The merits most likely wont stay come the fixes they're doing to it and even if they do it doesn't make WHM the specialist of Regen. They proved with the Regen and Regen II levels this was SCH's expertise. RDM is supposed to be the expert of enfeebling but it doesn't stop other jobs BLM and WHM gaining all their enfeebles "Learning spells != Specialist."

    You're just kicking and screaming for the fun of it.
    (3)

  10. #20
    Player Jerbob's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    314
    Character
    Jeral
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    I've not been rude to you and I'd appreciate it if you would do the same, thank you.

    I have no problem with SCH having some proficiency in Regen, just as I have no problem with Red Mage having the same - and I'd certainly support them recieving Regen III, and possibly Regen IV. As you say, learning spells does not equate to being a specialist. Red Mage is a particularly unfortunate example at the moment, with the problems with enfeebling magic and Addle (which should not have been given to White Mage) but I can appreciate it as an example nonetheless, as Red Mage is significantly better at it as it stands. However, White Mage's "pre-SCH" state of learning an entire line of spells (and exclusively the top two tiers), having exclusive gear and merits to support those spells and having the ability (and need) to make good use of them, as White Mage has had in the past, not to mention this being the case for a very long time, was (and is) as good a claim to specialisation as any other in the game.

    SCH learns Regen and Regen II at a slightly earlier level than White Mage, this is true, but as I understand it the actual potency is reduced until it reaches a cap at the level that White Mage learns it, which is certainly something to consider if this is the only claim to Regen that SCH has. Even without that point, pushing SCH's proposed speciality in Regen (again, amongst its not insignificant array of proposed specialisations) back to its inception does not change the point - that SCH has taken one of White Mage's specialities (as I have demonstrated) as its own instead of having any unique ones. If we do intend to consider the entire existence of SCH, it's clear, as you say, that it's a progressive thing. If I must say that this behaviour is a problem from the very beginning then I will do, and stick by it.

    It's not just White Mage that has changed to make Regen less useful - indeed I'd argue that it's mostly support jobs and the nature of the game that has done that. Regen needs a significant boost to make it worth casting for any job. Whilst SCH is mopping up all the enhancements, this won't happen. White Mages not using Regen is not a reason for it to lose it as a speciality, it's a reason to fix it for everyone.

    All I can see in SCH's favour for exclusive access to more potent and higher tiered Regen over other mages in general and White Mage specifically, respectively, is a need for more potency in restorative magic. There are lots of ways of dealing with that - this forum has many creative ideas. Stealing Regen specialisation from White Mage is just a lazy way of doing it.

    Unfortunately it is midnight here so I must sign off. Good night!
    (4)

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