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  1. #61
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Here cure calculator.

    http://members.shaw.ca/pizza_steve/c...alculator.html

    At this you can see a BLU's M.fruit destroying Cure V for efficiency, P.embrace is just M.Fruit +110, it rivals Cure V in sheer potency.

    At 95 /WHM gives 144 healing magic skill and /SCH gives 310. At 140 MND 90VIT and 18% cure potency (not terribly difficult to achieve) you get.

    226 Wild Carrot at 37MP
    238 Cure III at 46MP (44 under LA)
    481 Cure IV at 88MP (80 under LA)
    607 Magic Fruits at 72MP.
    717 P.Embrace at 106MP, +Attack / Magic Attack bonus.

    In comparison,
    843 Cure V at 135 MP (122 with LA)

    Another thing of note is that both M.Fruit and P.Embrace are just Cure V (-200 cure power for MF, -90 for PE), they share in it's soft / hard caps being significantly higher then what is possible with Cure IV / III. Also if / when SE alters the cure formula, this can/will directly boost Blue healing magic.
    This is bad math. You're using a BLU's Cure Potency gear on a WHM to get those results. WHM is absolutely not going to be rocking 18% Cure Potency =/.

    The correct comparison looks more like this:

    BLU w/your stats:
    Wild Carrot: 226 HP / 37 MP Ratio = 6.108
    Magic Fruit: 607 HP / 72 MP Ratio = 8.43
    Pl. Embrace: 717 HP / 106 MP Ratio = 6.76

    WHM w/ 150MND 100VIT 400 Healing Skill 50% Cure Pot (not hard outside Abyssea):
    Cure2: 147 HP / 22 MP Ratio = 6.68
    Cure3: 307 HP / 42 MP Ratio = 7.31
    Cure4: 622 HP / 80 MP Ratio = 7.77
    Cure5: 1095 HP / 122 MP Ratio = 8.98

    This is excluding the 35% Solaceskin bonus each cure receives.

    BLU's cures do not rival WHM in either potency or efficiency using your prescribed stats. I don't know jack shit about BLU gear availability, so if they can get more Cure Potency please be sure to adjust your numbers accordingly.
    (3)

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  2. #62
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    Blu maxes out at... ~32% Cure Potency counting all augmented gear I believe. ~24% without. 19% with apollo's/oretenia's/serpentes. ... How did you get 18% anyway?
    (0)

  3. #63
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Switching BLU to 24% Cure Potency changes their numbers to:

    Wild Carrot: 238/37 R = 6.43
    M Fruit: 637/72 R = 8.84
    P Embrace: 753/106 = 7.10

    It comes closer to WHM's efficiency, but still does not beat it - and doesn't come close in pure potency, still ignoring solaceskin.

    Let's try maxed augmented gear, or 32% Cure Pot:

    Wild Carrot: 253/37 R = 6.84
    M Fruit: 678/72 R = 9.41
    P Embrace: 801/106 = 7.55

    Now, if we ignore Solaceskin, Magic Fruit becomes more efficient than Cure V. Plenuline Embrace, however, is still less efficient than even Cure IV and caps out significantly lower than a decent Cure V, let alone a Cure VI. If we add Solaceskin to the mix, WHM's potency starts to look like the following:

    Cure2: 198 HP / 22 MP Ratio = 9.0
    Cure3: 414 HP / 42 MP Ratio = 9.85
    Cure4: 839 HP / 80 MP Ratio = 10.49
    Cure5: 1478 HP / 122 MP Ratio = 12.11

    Yeah. BLU isn't even close if you take Solace into account - neither in Efficiency, HP cured, or total HP saved (skin+cure).
    (1)

    I will have my revenge!

  4. #64
    Player Swords's Avatar
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    Even with WHM having AF3+2 pants and Cureskin giving them the advantage in both mp efficiency and curing ability, BLU is the only job with the scope to even reach an acceptable secondary healer if nothing more due to the fact they have multiple mid-high level cures available to them. SCH can pull out a decent Cure IV, but falls behind without the support of another mid/high level cure to cycle through, which RDM also suffers from.

    Anyways, not trying to get into the middle of your argument, but aside from numbers I think the whole point Saevel was trying to make was...

    "BLU while limited in it's own aspects, gets multiple tools in multiple forms at a level much better than any jobs besides specialists in their respective field, putting them at a much higher tier of versatility and capability than other jobs like RDM which are supposed to be specialists in the respective field of versatility."
    (1)
    Last edited by Swords; 11-29-2011 at 02:45 AM.

  5. #65
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Holy crap, I forgot AF3+2 pants. That would vastly change the HP:MP ratios for all WHM spells, meaning BLU doesn't even come close to touching them. What the hell, Saevel?

    I think the issue that people are forgetting with BLU, though, is the fact that they can only set so many spells at one time and there is a delay after any sort of changes wherein the BLU can't cast anything at all. People seem to underestimate the value of this time. Arts are the single biggest reason that SCH is such a shitty mage, and even those are more lenient than BLU spell setting. BLU loses a ton of versatility by having to set their spells for a given role and then be stuck in them, unable to change their role instantly on-the-fly if they need to.

    As a backup healer, they have decent spells, but if they're set as a backup healer then they are only a backup healer unless they want to be useless for a full minute while resetting spells. They can't handle backup healing while doing crowd control, enfeebling, and contributing worthwhile nuke damage. That doesn't happen. Who can do that? Red Mage.
    (2)

    I will have my revenge!

  6. #66
    Player Swords's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    Holy crap, I forgot AF3+2 pants. That would vastly change the HP:MP ratios for all WHM spells, meaning BLU doesn't even come close to touching them. What the hell, Saevel?
    Really though, is this so much about WHM. Thought the whole point he brought up BLU to begin with was to point out it has better capability than either RDM or SCH at healing and enhancing even if BLU's role would be more or less restricted to it (which at the moment RDM pretty much is).
    (1)

  7. #67
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swords View Post
    Really though, is this so much about WHM. Thought the whole point he brought up BLU to begin with was to point out it has better capability than either RDM or SCH at healing and enhancing even if BLU's role would be more or less restricted to it (which at the moment RDM pretty much is).
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    At this you can see a BLU's M.fruit destroying Cure V for efficiency, P.embrace is just M.Fruit +110, it rivals Cure V in sheer potency.
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    In comparison,
    843 Cure V at 135 MP (122 with LA)

    Another thing of note is that both M.Fruit and P.Embrace are just Cure V (-200 cure power for MF, -90 for PE), they share in it's soft / hard caps being significantly higher then what is possible with Cure IV / III. Also if / when SE alters the cure formula, this can/will directly boost Blue healing magic.
    Don't look at me. I jumped in because he was using terrible, shitty math to prove a point and I corrected it. If he wants to make some point completely unrelated to WHM, that's fine, but he doesn't get a free pass if he tries to bullshit his way through it.

    My point stands, however, with regards to RDM. RDM can cap Cure Potency now, so you'd still have to compare the non-Solaceskin numbers to BLU, with the exception of Cure V.

    This becomes:
    Pimped BLU using all augmented gear for 32% Cure Pot:

    Wild Carrot: 253/37 R = 6.84
    M Fruit: 678/72 R = 9.41
    P Embrace: 801/106 = 7.55

    Normal BLU using 24% Cure Pot:

    Wild Carrot: 238/37 R = 6.43
    M Fruit: 637/72 R = 8.84
    P Embrace: 753/106 = 7.10

    RDM with 50% Cure Pot:

    Cure2: 147 HP / 22 MP Ratio = 6.68
    Cure3: 307 HP / 42 MP Ratio = 7.31
    Cure4: 622 HP / 80 MP Ratio = 7.77

    BLU is pretty easily more potent than RDM, but it loses out on a ton of versatility if it's spec'd for healing alone.

    Edit: This is also ignoring the fact that Embrace has twice the recast of normal cures.
    (1)
    Last edited by Greatguardian; 11-29-2011 at 03:40 AM.

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  8. #68
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
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    Character
    Iocus
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Both jobs excel at what they're good at. Rdm's happens to be mainly enfeebles.
    WRONG. BLU is a job that has some limits to the flexibility it can offer in a single battle, but never lacks for potency on what they have available. (If you pick a bad bunch of spells then your BLU can look pretty bad, but that is user error, not job inadequacy.)

    RDM on the other hand has no potency what-so-ever that competes with other jobs. Enfeebles? More than half of our library has been disabled from serious play in this game through straight immunity. What is left over? Dia 3 that you could get a DRG!? to get a better defense down debuff. You can't even use Saboteur to increase the defense down effect of Dia 3. Paralyze and Slow II that always suffer from reduced potency or immunity from real NMs. Blind II that doesn't matter because the accuracy for real NMs will not be affected by it. Poison II's damage was outdated at 75, Saboteur didn't change that because the HP for NMs went up exponentially.

    So yeah we have full potency at one thing that SE decided they were going to destroy when they moved past 75. You're right apple and oranges, as in BLU is a good job aka an apple and RDM is an orange aka a broken job. (If you like oranges better than reverse them for your preference.) One of these jobs is blatantly better than the other and BLU doesn't want to admit that it is in a pretty sweet spot because they have to reset spells if they want to change out from their good spells to their other good spells....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    not sword swinging, not healing, not dark magic, not elemental magic either. Granted they use to be able to do all of those things very well, it's just annoying to see all the crying and whining about Cure V, regen iv, more enfeebles, more job abilities, and more melee abilities...
    You're right RDM has access to around 120 spells, BLU has access to around 150 spells. Since 75 RDM has gotten 20 spells, BLU has gotten 37. It's like SE has taken a vested interested in one of these jobs and left the other one out in the cold.

    RDM has access to 21 job traits, BLU has access to 32. Those 21 job traits are distributed into 8 different traits that we just get higher tiers of. BLUs only repeating trait is Clear Mind which goes up to IV on BLU and only up to III on RDM, so realistically BLU has access to 29 unique job traits. On top of that, BLU can choose which job traits they want so they can custom tailor themselves for whatever task is ahead. Furthermore, BLU has access to job traits that belong to a wide variety of jobs, not just mage jobs. SE has no problem putting access those job traits on BLU, but the RDM wants them, they are scorned for wanting things that other people have even though we are described as a jack-of-all-trades job. I guess that means that a BLU must be a Queen-of-all-trades job since they are clearly allowed to get whatever they want from other jobs, while RDM is not.

    RDMs are asking for more things all the time because what we are supposed to excel at is broken and everything else we have is not just behind BLU in potency, but everyone. I personally don't want Cure V, but upgrades to melee and nuking would be appreciated, since we don't believe that enfeebling will be fixed anytime soon. Until Enfeebling is fixed or we get upgrades in potency for other things, then RDM will remain at the end of the line, a place BLU is nowhere near.
    (1)
    Last edited by ManaKing; 11-29-2011 at 05:39 AM.
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  9. #69
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
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    897
    Character
    Iocus
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz View Post
    Sadly, one of the best debuffs at the moment for harder Nms is Impact, which is Cloak only.
    That's RDM only right, because we are the best enfeeblers? Pretty much every job with MP can use it? It's not even based off of Enfeebling magic? It's based off of Elemental Magic? /SCH on any job which enough MP to cast Impact is better for Impact than RDM main?

    Well good thing we aren't blatantly getting left behind again....WAIT A MINUTE!
    (0)
    Last edited by ManaKing; 11-29-2011 at 05:39 AM.
    I'm a RequieSCAT-MAN!

  10. #70
    Player Ketaru's Avatar
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    Character
    Ketaru
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Such misplaced rage at SCH and BLU right now. Especially since SCH itself is in a pretty terrible position right now and, as far as the rest of the game is concerned, RDM and BLU don't fill the same spot in a group.
    (2)
    "NeED★RdM? PLeaSe sENd★teLL!"

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