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  1. #1
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
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    Iocus
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    Phoenix
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    RDM Lv 99

    Still no decent elemental WS for RDM that uses MAB?

    I like where the new WSs are going but I'm still really sore about no Sanguine Blade and no other Elemental WS that RDM can actually use it's MAB on for single targets. In some ways, Requiescat will replace the need for magical damage WS to get around high defense, but I still don't see why you wouldn't want to give RDM an elemental WS to use all of the MAB gear they can collect.

    I would advocate changing Death Blossom from a Physical WS to an Elemental WS. Keep it's SC properties the same but change the effect TP plays on its damage output. You can change it to 'Damage varies with TP.' and give it Uriel Blades Scaling. OR you can keep the Magic Evasion down and give it a decent multiplier like 3.0 ~ 4.0 and increase the Magic Evasion down to at least -30 and stack with Ninjitsu debuffs.

    Murgleis is perfectly setup to be used for elemental WS with it's high magic accuracy and all of it's aftermath effects are beneficial as well to an Elemental WS that uses MAB as a factor. Make the Murgleis the pinnacle of RDM's elemental WS use just like the Almace does for Physical WSs.
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  2. #2
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    There is way too much they'd need to do to make Murgleis not suck beyond Convert macro, and even turning Db into an elews will not save it unless they turn it into the new Jinpu with even better mods + damage varies by TP - or make it a Crit WS with new mods.
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  3. #3
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
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    Iocus
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    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz View Post
    There is way too much they'd need to do to make Murgleis not suck beyond Convert macro, and even turning Db into an elews will not save it unless they turn it into the new Jinpu with even better mods + damage varies by TP - or make it a Crit WS with new mods.
    We already have CDC if we are willing to work for it. I don't see why we need a 2nd Crit WS. Requiescat is going to be used again higher Def mobs and mobs with physical resistance/immunity. You even get to add in multiple attacks to your damage modifiers, which is nice since we get temper and BLU gets some double and triple attack. At this point Excaliber is probably going to be used for Requiescat for it's +Attack more than it will be used for Knights of the Rounds. So at least Almace and Excaliber might both have uses. Why is the Murgleis so bad when it is blatantly the most time consuming to acquire?

    What we don't have is a WS that actually uses MAB as the fuel for our damage. If Death Blossom was turned into Wildfire, wouldn't you want it? Of all the jobs in the game, RDM comes in at 2nd behind BLM in MAB. Why don't we have good Elemental WSs to take advantage of this? We really should be playing to our strengths.

    I do agree that Murgleis needs more upgrades, but changing Death Blossom into a desirable WS would help every RDM. If they change enfeebling back to requiring large amounts of magical accuracy to land debuffs on hard targets(instead of them being immune), then the M.ACC on Murgleis will start to shine more.
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  4. #4
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    Aside from Sam/Maybe Blade: To hybrid WS I'm fairly certain their really isn't another elemental WS that's multihit (I'm not counting Atonement since that is modded by Enmity).

    SE already stated they have no intention of fixing Requiescat's Attack penalty so I'm not holding my breath out for that.

    Although it would be fairly rare I would prefer a strong physical WS with Murgleis to benefit from the Occaisonally attacks 2-3 times effect.
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  5. #5
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
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    Iocus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz View Post
    Aside from Sam/Maybe Blade: To hybrid WS I'm fairly certain their really isn't another elemental WS that's multihit (I'm not counting Atonement since that is modded by Enmity).

    SE already stated they have no intention of fixing Requiescat's Attack penalty so I'm not holding my breath out for that.

    Although it would be fairly rare I would prefer a strong physical WS with Murgleis to benefit from the Occaisonally attacks 2-3 times effect.
    I know what you mean on the Occasionally attacks 2-3 times being nicely suited for physical WSs. But it also makes TPing a breeze. Death Blossom is already a 3 hit WS so you can technically hit 8 attacks without even having an offhand during WS. Is it going to be beat out max damage on CDC though? I don't think it will. I'm pretty sure dual wield and some decent double attack and crit gear is still going to win in max damage and probably is going to win in consistency as well because of how well double attack and crit WSs work out.

    If they would adjust the base multiplier for Death Blossom to 2.0 from 1.125 then we could have an actual race on WSs.

    It wouldn't fix my discomfort that RDM is part mage and we don't show it when we WS. We don't even get access to any of the good Elemental WSs without picking a sub job. The reason I'm looking for an elemental WS is that physical WSs are inconsistent in their damage. They almost always deal better damage than Elemental WSs because of how poorly most Elemental WSs are designed, but crit and double attack are not factors you can count on outside of aby, even in the best WSs sets for a RDM. If we had a well designed Elemental WS we could rock the house on damage in a way that makes sense for a part mage to do so.
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  6. #6
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManaKing View Post
    I know what you mean on the Occasionally attacks 2-3 times being nicely suited for physical WSs. But it also makes TPing a breeze. Death Blossom is already a 3 hit WS so you can technically hit 8 attacks without even having an offhand during WS. Is it going to be beat out max damage on CDC though? I don't think it will. I'm pretty sure dual wield and some decent double attack and crit gear is still going to win in max damage and probably is going to win in consistency as well because of how well double attack and crit WSs work out.

    If they would adjust the base multiplier for Death Blossom to 2.0 from 1.125 then we could have an actual race on WSs.

    It wouldn't fix my discomfort that RDM is part mage and we don't show it when we WS. We don't even get access to any of the good Elemental WSs without picking a sub job. The reason I'm looking for an elemental WS is that physical WSs are inconsistent in their damage. They almost always deal better damage than Elemental WSs because of how poorly most Elemental WSs are designed, but crit and double attack are not factors you can count on outside of aby, even in the best WSs sets for a RDM. If we had a well designed Elemental WS we could rock the house on damage in a way that makes sense for a part mage to do so.
    Well DA is something we can get large amounts of by easy gear and a single spell.

    Req doesn't touch CDC, it's barely on par with vorpal. 100% MND and 5 hits is nice, but -20% attack pretty much wipes out it's damage potential.
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  7. #7
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
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    Conditionally, I hope Requiescat will out damage CDC. Not under normal conditions, but under the condition that you are fighting something with extreme physical defense.

    I agree RDM does fine with Double attack, but Crit is not so easy to come by for consistency, outside of aby. There are only a small handful of items that a RDM can acquire.

    CDC could be beaten by a well designed Elemental WS. At least on RDM. BLU and PLD, probably not. They don't have the same access to MAB as RDM.
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  8. #8
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManaKing View Post
    Conditionally, I hope Requiescat will out damage CDC. Not under normal conditions, but under the condition that you are fighting something with extreme physical defense.

    I agree RDM does fine with Double attack, but Crit is not so easy to come by for consistency, outside of aby. There are only a small handful of items that a RDM can acquire.

    CDC could be beaten by a well designed Elemental WS. At least on RDM. BLU and PLD, probably not. They don't have the same access to MAB as RDM.
    Maybe you don't understand, Req isn't a magic based WS. It's five +1 (/NIN) hits, 100% MND -20% attack and use's the regular physical WS formula. Mdiff and fINT have no effect on it at all, neither does M.acc or magic damage bonus (staff / atma). It's a physical WS period. It's only redeeming value is that it's damage subtype is unspecified similar to SWI / Atonement instead of slashing like the rest of the physical sword WS or piercing like physical dagger WS. So if the monster had 25% slashing resistance then that would be ignored for Req.

    High defense on the other hand would crush Req damage even more then normal. That -20% penalty would become glaringly apparent. At 650 attack you would be WSing as though you had 520 attack. If the monster was the same level as you and had 400 defense you would go from 650/400 = 1.62 ratio to 520/400 = 1.3 ratio or at (1.62/1.3) = 1.246, 24.6% damage hit. If the monster is four levels above you then it becomes (1.62 - 0.2 = 1.42) vs (1.3 - 0.2 = 1.1) for (1.42/1.1 = 1.29) a 29% damage hit. And this isn't even talking the damage bonus that CDC gets with critical hits.

    Now lets talk about crits, RDM doesn't have +crit damage but we're no slouch's. 5% crit from merits, 6% from neck piece and +15% from WS @100TP means 26% before dDEX. Wonderful thing about CDC is that since it's 60% DEX WSC you want to pile on DEX which happens to raise both your accuracy and base crit rate. So anywhere from 10~20% at dDEX=(40~50). So now we're talking 36~46% crit rate during a four hit WS (/NIN) that we can turn into a five hit on DA proc. So while we won't be busting out Ukon WAR damage, we won't be hitting for 600 either. The sheer amount of DEX/Acc we get means you'll be eating meat on most things, or pizza at worst.

    So yeah, CDC > all right now. Req => DB depending. Req's 6 hit vs DB's 4 hit with WSC being about even between then (100% MND vs 30% STR 50% MND) but Req getting that atrocious attack penalty and db having a slightly higher fTP on first hit.
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    Last edited by saevel; 12-12-2011 at 09:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Player Mirage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManaKing View Post
    Death Blossom is already a 3 hit WS so you can technically hit 8 attacks without even having an offhand during WS.
    I'm not entirely sure how you get to 8 there. Could you elaborate?
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  10. #10
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    I'm not entirely sure how you get to 8 there. Could you elaborate?
    I have no idea how he's getting 8 without off hand on Req. 5 hit + 1 off hand = 6 and you can get up to two DA's during WS.

    @468 enhancing magic I have +16% DA. Brutal and Atheling brings it to 24% DA, not sure if I have anymore +DA in my gear sets, don't think so. So a single DA happening every WS is going to be pretty common and a second one isn't going to be too uncommon. But you can only get 2 DA's or 1 TA per WS, so single handed we're looking at 7 hits maximum not 8.

    Anyhow the -20% attack pretty much ruins your damage on anything T or higher.
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