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  1. #41
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    1,397
    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher View Post
    then give WHM Hasteaga.
    Then give White Mage AND Red Mage Hastega. I'm sick of White Mage being the only one with AoE enhancing all the time. I can understand barspells, but when it comes to stuff like "Gain-STR", would it really hurt SE to give Red Mage the AoE version and have seven less spells in the game? While we're on it, Red Mage should also get Phalanxga and AoE spikes. >.>

    Edit: Seriously, here is how you do it:

    Make Haste Accessionable.

    Hastega
    Increases attack speed of party members in an area of effect.
    Spell cost: 40 MP
    Spell element: Wind
    Target: Party Member
    Magic skill: Enhancing Magic
    Jobs: White Mage Lv. 80 / Red Mage Lv. 80

    Price: 18,000 - 21,000 gil
    Quelpia Selbina (H-9) Standard Merchant
    Shohrun-Tuhrun Windurst Waters (G-7) Standard Merchant

    And if you get complaints you could increase learn levels to 96 for one or both jobs, or increase the spell cost to 129 MP, but I see no reason for either. The point leaving it as is is this - at 80, White Mage, Red Mage, and Scholar would be able to Accession + Haste. While this will still have uses for Alliances, for parties, White Mage and Red Mage will be able to simply use Hastega, while Scholar can burn a strat to use Haste if they have White Mage sub (or at 96, Red Mage sub).
    (3)
    Last edited by Economizer; 11-28-2011 at 01:33 AM.

  2. #42
    Player Daniel_Hatcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    2,577
    Character
    Alvian
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 12
    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    Then give White Mage AND Red Mage Hastega. I'm sick of White Mage being the only one with AoE enhancing all the time. I can understand barspells, but when it comes to stuff like "Gain-STR", would it really hurt SE to give Red Mage the AoE version and have seven less spells in the game? While we're on it, Red Mage should also get Phalanxga and AoE spikes. >.>

    Edit: Seriously, here is how you do it:

    Make Haste Accessionable.

    Hastega
    Increases attack speed of party members in an area of effect.
    Spell cost: 40 MP
    Spell element: Wind
    Target: Party Member
    Magic skill: Enhancing Magic
    Jobs: White Mage Lv. 80 / Red Mage Lv. 80

    Price: 18,000 - 21,000 gil
    Quelpia Selbina (H-9) Standard Merchant
    Shohrun-Tuhrun Windurst Waters (G-7) Standard Merchant

    And if you get complaints you could increase learn levels to 96 for one or both jobs, or increase the spell cost to 129 MP, but I see no reason for either. The point leaving it as is is this - at 80, White Mage, Red Mage, and Scholar would be able to Accession + Haste. While this will still have uses for Alliances, for parties, White Mage and Red Mage will be able to simply use Hastega, while Scholar can burn a strat to use Haste if they have White Mage sub (or at 96, Red Mage sub).
    I want natural AoE enhancing magic, but SE just will not give it to RDM for some reason. It's got to the point they're pissing on RDM so much just allowing Haste to be Accessioned would be a massive improvement for RDM.

    Personally I always assumed in the beginning SE was under the rules of "Mastery in said field = AoE" and have never understood RDM not getting AoE enhancing, but i'm past thinking SE will do anything but give us junk spells.

    Phalanx is our line of spells, and yet they laughed at RDM when they made it castable on others only via merits and not even AoE then added SCH and gave them the ability to AoE it at the same potency and all this without merits. Then looking ahead to 99 SCH will gain Haste so /RDM will be the only job for SCH and they'll do it at the same potency, the same duration as our eAF armour and AoE every spell bar Haste unless SE changes it come lvl.99 which I wouldn't be surprised with.
    (0)
    Last edited by Daniel_Hatcher; 11-28-2011 at 02:27 AM.

  3. #43
    Player Seriha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    981
    Character
    Kalsena
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    More for RDM getting a native option to AoE, sphere, or clone current buffs on a respectable timer. Though, letting Enspell IIs get AoE'd would ideally force SE to fix them as they had to do with T1s to work on caster's skill at time of cast rather than the attacker's on-strike.

    Either way, RDM needed new things before even the cap increases. Getting so very little since while other jobs usually got at least one or two good things has widened the gaps that existed even then. So, while I'm for subjobs improving our flexibility, they shouldn't be a requirement to perform a native function of the main... which for RDM should be a little bit of everything.
    (2)

  4. #44
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    really? Where's that 10 min JA at? Lets look at the wiki shall we?(Btw a blu 95 with the same job ability that you're talking about is not trolling kthx.) and let me bold the part that you're stupid enough to consider me trolling about.



    and I was actually being sincere about the JA thing, it's retarded that it's already a minimum 10 min recast on a JA. I'd rather not see Red mage have to suffer the same penalty.

    Oh and as far as blu's list of spells, we only get a maximum of 20 spells or 60 points worth of spells at a single time(not including the JA spells). Our list of spells may reach 150 but we are only able to hold 20 of them and as of now 85% of blu's spells have a minimal useage.

    Imagine how much you would whine and complain if rdm whm or sch got nerfed that much to where you can only set your 20 of your vast spell lists and have to wait 1 min before you can actually cast them.
    If RDM get even HALF of what BLU has, then I'd be very happy. You forget I am a BLU, I know ~exactly~ what a BLU is capable of, both in offensive roles and as the 2nd best healer in the game. Yes the dirty secret BLU's like to avoid answering is that SE has given you more support options then pure damage options. BLU/WHM gets P.Embrace, M.fruit and Cure IV, all on separate timers. You get Erasega on a ridiculously lot timer, something everyone else has to burn accession for. Stoneskinga, super blink, then all the mdef / mab buffs that you can aoe for the proper moment. You get your own self refresh and haste, and from /WHM you can cast the exact same haste that everyone else gets. One light aoe sleep, two black aoe sleeps, and one ST damage + sleep physical spell. Multiple forms of dispel, even dispel-ga.

    And other then 5/5 Assimilation, what else would you be meriting? Enchainment would be the only other one with a decent effect, +50 TP during CA.

    So yes, BLU has a 10min JA that makes it's buffs aoe. And it's not just haste, that would be one of the worst use's for it. BLU gets tons of damage reduction buffs, Saline Coat alone is gold. Several shells used to use Diffusion Saline Coat on Ultima (back at 75) to survive Citadel buster. Currently BLU is one of the most overpowered jobs, due to all the buffs SE keeps throwing at it. It gets a useful spell every update, so many useful spells that you can't even fit them all on at once. You get just about every JT in the game and JA's that enhance those spells to allow you to deal more damage, apply more status effects or just self SC. And need we go into a single BLU using Charged Whisker to farm pretty much anything they want.

    Do not even try to attack the BLU reference. It was done deliberately to illustrate how aoe buffs for things like Haste already exist in the game and that it wouldn't be breaking anything.
    (2)

  5. #45
    Player Darkvalkyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Aht Urhgan
    Posts
    58
    Character
    Darkvalkyr
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 95
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    You allow BLU to aoe their spells to party members, you should allow RDM to do the same.
    Every 10 to 20 minutes by using merits. And most of our buffs are very, very short that it's rare another job can't do it better.

    Unless you want a merit JA that does the same thing at 99?
    (3)

  6. #46
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvalkyr View Post
    Every 10 to 20 minutes by using merits. And most of our buffs are very, very short that it's rare another job can't do it better.

    Unless you want a merit JA that does the same thing at 99?
    Vs ... absolutely nothing.

    The threads about accession or a similar RDM ability, not Blue Mage. And don't even try to diminish the usefulness of Diffusion. With any other job it would be laughable but with what BLU has access to it's amazing. Barrier Tusk / Saline Coat at a critical moment or immediately prior to a zerg rush is invaluable.
    (0)

  7. #47
    Player ManaKing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    897
    Character
    Iocus
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriha View Post
    More for RDM getting a native option to AoE, sphere, or clone current buffs on a respectable timer. Though, letting Enspell IIs get AoE'd would ideally force SE to fix them as they had to do with T1s to work on caster's skill at time of cast rather than the attacker's on-strike.

    Either way, RDM needed new things before even the cap increases. Getting so very little since while other jobs usually got at least one or two good things has widened the gaps that existed even then. So, while I'm for subjobs improving our flexibility, they shouldn't be a requirement to perform a native function of the main... which for RDM should be a little bit of everything.
    Oh look, we agree as usual. You must be right. NEEDING a subjob to do you job is a disgrace. Subs are supposed to add extra, not make up for what you job doesn't have.
    (2)
    Last edited by ManaKing; 11-28-2011 at 03:01 PM.
    I'm a RequieSCAT-MAN!

  8. #48
    Player Ciecle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria(atm)
    Posts
    66
    Character
    Ciecle
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Ok let me break every single piece of diarrhea you just spewed onto paper for you cause obviously you do not understand anything about any job and should probably quit while you're ahead(or behind depending on who you ask.)

    If RDM get even HALF of what BLU has, then I'd be very happy. You forget I am a BLU, I know ~exactly~ what a BLU is capable of, both in offensive roles and as the 2nd best healer in the game.
    Rdm has better enfeebles that last nearly double that of blu's. Gravity, Gravity II, Addle, Blind, Blind II, Dia, Dia II, Dia III, Diaga, Diaga II, Silence, Paralyze, Paralyze II, Bind, Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Sleep, Sleep II, Slow, Slow II, Break,Poison, Poison II
    Now lets break every single spell down that you can instantly cast at any point in time you see fit:
    Gravity/Gravity II: Lowers Evasion, and Increases Weight.
    Addle: Increases spell casting time and decreases Macc.
    Blind/Blind II: Decreases Physical Accuracy.
    Dia Family: Decreases Defense and adds a Light Damage-over-time effect
    Silence: Makes the enemy not able to cast spells
    Paralyze/Paralyze II: Likely chance that your opponent will be Paralyzed and unable to attack
    Bind: Stops the opponent from moving
    Bio/II/III: Decreases Physical Attack and adds a dark damage-over-time effect
    Sleep/Sleep II: Makes the opponent sleep. Sleep II can overwrite Sleep I
    Slow/Slow II: Decreases opponent's physical attack speed.
    Break: Stops the opponent from moving or casting. aka Bind II with a short silence effect that breaks on an attack.
    Poison/Poison II: a plain damage-over-time spell

    Depending on sub job, you can get even more enfeebles that are quick to cast and rdm would have a way easier time landing it.
    Drk:
    Absorb-Tp,Absorb-Dex/str/int/agi/chr/mnd/vit,Drain, Aspir, Stun, Poisonga

    Blm:
    Stun, Drain, Aspir, Sleepga, Choke, Shock, Rasp, Frost, Drown, Burn

    Sch:
    Drain(ga*), Aspir(ga*), Dispelga*, Sleepga*, Sleepga II*, Graviga*, Blindga* Bindga*, Poisonga*, Poisonga II*, Breakga*, Bioga*, Bioga II*

    and since you want to say that you're also a blu,

    Blu:
    Sand spin, Sprout Smack, Wild Oats, sound blast, terror touch, stinking gas, geist wall, aweful eye, Soporific, sheep Song, and soon to be jettatura

    And all of this is just enfeebles. as far as rdm being the 'Worst at everything' as you're implying, they sure have a lot of just 1 little thing.

    Yes the dirty secret BLU's like to avoid answering is that SE has given you more support options then pure damage options. BLU/WHM gets P.Embrace, M.fruit and Cure IV, all on separate timers.You get Erasega on a ridiculously lot timer, something everyone else has to burn accession for. Stoneskinga, super blink, then all the mdef / mab buffs that you can aoe for the proper moment.
    Here's the dirty little secret that you're also avoiding, Blu's AoE Erase, is self only. Blus have to run into range of damage to erase, we still have to burn a charge as /sch for erasega if you're not wanting to take damage. P.Embrace is a minor att+ and Matt+ and is a very big mp whore, and as far as all spells being on separate timers, you act like you've been playing with Pup. Stoneskin-ga is the same as everyone else just don't have to use one of your precious charges("OMG THAT'S SOOOO OVER POWERED!" Hi2U Smn). Haste from sub(big whoop a war/whm could still get the same haste.) that rdm isnt missing. Super blink is just that, BLINK yes it can save your life at times, but when it comes to anything that matters blink does not win at any point. Mdef/Mab buffs are nice, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty, the buffs do not last longer then 15 seconds, and in fights that last longer then 15 seconds, you still have the next magic spell from the enemy that you're not going to be able to block, if by chance you're even in a tank party to begin with(aka being in range to be taking damage on anything that matters).

    You get your own self refresh and haste, and from /WHM you can cast the exact same haste that everyone else gets. One light aoe sleep, two black aoe sleeps, and one ST damage + sleep physical spell. Multiple forms of dispel, even dispel-ga.
    so do whms, schs, and rdms, What's your point on that? Rdm has 2 Sleeps. those 2 sleeps combined last 150 seconds(subject to resists) with which sleep II can overwrite sleep. Blu, has 5 sleeps, Pinecone bomb: minor damage and a short lasting sleep(~30 seconds), Yawn: a Frontal AoE light based sleep(~60s), Sheep Song: an AoE short lasting Light based sleep(~30s), Soporific: A dark based sleep(~90s), and Dream Flower: a dark based sleep(~90s). All of which DO NOT overwrite each other.
    as far as dispel goes, Rdm/Sch has Dispel, Dispelga*, Rdm/Blu has Dispel, and Geist Wall, and blank gaze. As far as blu is concerned, we have a total of 4 total dispels, Osmosis, Voracious trunk, Blank Gaze, and Geist Wall. a little hint, Voracious trunk and Osmosis both have a ~1min+ recast time rendering them nearly unusable in most situations that you need a ton of dispels, if you even have all 4 set right then and there.

    And other then 5/5 Assimilation, what else would you be meriting? Enchainment would be the only other one with a decent effect, +50 TP during CA.
    i'd leave this one to your imagination. I will say this though, +25%matt/macc bonus to your next magical based blu spells is very sexy.

    So yes, BLU has a 10min JA that makes it's buffs aoe. And it's not just haste, that would be one of the worst use's for it. BLU gets tons of damage reduction buffs, Saline Coat alone is gold. Several shells used to use Diffusion Saline Coat on Ultima (back at 75) to survive Citadel buster.
    ok, 75 != 95/99. Things last 10 times longer then ultima not to mention, most people who were any good that had the pleasure of getting drawn in for cit.buster had a mdt-gear set and a whm with capped shellra V.

    Currently BLU is one of the most overpowered jobs, due to all the buffs SE keeps throwing at it. It gets a useful spell every update, so many useful spells that you can't even fit them all on at once.
    overpowered? ha. Blu still has to sit in the back of the line ups to set spells during voidwatch so they dont take damage so they can run in and proc. If you call that over powered, then you really need to reread the definition of that word. the 'useful' spells are only to keep the job up. with out the spells the job would instantly fall behind pup in damage. and that's a place most blus would rather not be.(sorry pups... I do like Pup just kind of have to throw you under the bus...)

    You get just about every JT in the game and JA's that enhance those spells to allow you to deal more damage, apply more status effects or just self SC.
    As mr. Camate has stated earlier in one of his many posts:(the post escapes my view at this time...) "Double attack isnt set at 10%, more like... 7%?" if that's not a slap in the face about your statement there, it should be. His statement, tells us that maybe not all of blu's JTs are set as high as they should be. Are you jealous that blu can self SC? Blm can self Sc> MB, Sam can self Sc double light, Sch can self SC > MB.

    And need we go into a single BLU using Charged Whisker to farm pretty much anything they want.
    need we go into the fact that blm can cast AoE spells, that War can Fell cleve, that mnk can Cataclysm, that thf can Aeolin Edge?

    Do not even try to attack the BLU reference. It was done deliberately to illustrate how aoe buffs for things like Haste already exist in the game and that it wouldn't be breaking anything.
    Here's the small thing that you fail to notice, Smn had AoE buffs longer then Blu was around. and they're all buffs that everyone wants.

    Don't start on the whole 'This isn't about that! it's about being able to accession haste and get cure V from SE!'

    TL;DR: Saevel is wrong, Rdm doesn't need a job ability that allows buffs to be AoE'd. It would be better if they are allowed to get the actual AoE spells vs a horrid job ability that has a horrible recast added to it...
    (5)
    Last edited by Ciecle; 11-28-2011 at 03:51 PM.

  9. #49
    Player Economizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,397
    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Ok let me break every single piece of diarrhea you just spewed onto paper for you cause obviously you do not understand anything about any job and should probably quit while you're ahead(or behind depending on who you ask.)
    Ignoring the petty attacks, lets go onto the content:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Diaga II
    Red Mage has this spell? News to me.

    Ignoring reduced potency even, most mobs are:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Gravity/Gravity II
    Immune.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Silence
    Immune.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Bind
    Immune.

    Regardless of what enfeebles any job has, a lot of this could be overhauled. For example, I was under the impression that SE was going to make the evasion down effect of gravity separate, at least on Gravity II, so that even high level NMs could get hit by it, but from test server reports, this seems not to have held true. Anyways, to go on:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Depending on sub job
    While Red Mage does synergize with sub jobs more effectively then the majority of other jobs, a sub does not make the main, it only augments it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Choke, Shock, Rasp, Frost, Drown, Burn
    Scale horrifically, otherwise they could have a lot of potential.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    as far as rdm being the 'Worst at everything' as you're implying
    This one isn't a fact about the game, so I can't really confirm this as easily, but I would think that this is not what Saevel is implying, but I'd have to check with him first, since I don't want to put words into his mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Here's the dirty little secret that you're also avoiding, Blu's AoE Erase, is self only. Blus have to run into range of damage to erase, we still have to burn a charge as /sch for erasega if you're not wanting to take damage.
    Remind me what you have to do, aside from setting the spell, to make this work? I don't even care about Red Mage, I would like it if Esuna worked right without having to switched from Solace. Blue Mage might not be a better healer then White Mage, but they have a lot of nice toys for not being one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    P.Embrace is a minor att+ and Matt+ and is a very big mp whore
    Plenilune Embrace has a better HP/MP ratio then Cure V, so don't complain about it sucking MP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Blu, has 5 sleeps
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    All of which DO NOT overwrite each other.
    Whirl of Rage, reapply sleep. BLU is one of the best jobs at crowd control, regardless of what other jobs can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Blu still has to sit in the back of the line ups to set spells during voidwatch so they dont take damage so they can run in and proc.
    Crappy proc systems does not a crappy job make. Yes this is a major problem, but it does not make Blue Mage crappy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ciecle View Post
    Blm can self Sc> MB
    Without /SAM, /DNC, consumables, or some superweapon how is this possible? Black Mage might even be able to outdamage a self skillchain and burst, but I've never heard of them being able to self chain short of the non-Black Mage methods listed.

    -

    Ultimately, I'm not really following this argument that closely, but if you are saying that BLU isn't a very powerful job, or incredibly versatile, then that is an outright lie. I think that Blue Mage is a good benchmark of what other jobs should be, and it is only natural for other jobs to emulate the success of Blue Mage - the job is fun, powerful, and even something to be jealous of.

    I think the issue of this thread isn't necessarily that some job is under/overpowered, but that SE's treatment of Red Mage (but more importantly, "Enhancing Magic" in general) has not been consistent with what it should be, and we have proof that they can be fairly consistent with jobs like Blue Mage.

    I've already said quite a bit about my thoughts on Haste, Phalanx, Gain/Boost, and a slew of other things, so I don't really need to repeat them - ultimately I'd like Enhancing Magic to get better, regardless of what other jobs that have the ability to buff are capable of - be it a COR, BLU, BRD or whatever.
    (3)

  10. #50
    Player Ciecle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria(atm)
    Posts
    66
    Character
    Ciecle
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I'm sorry, none of that was ment towards you econ, unless you're saevel. Diaga II was in the .dats is why i said it was there.

    I thought SE gave blm something that allows them to close SCs with elemental magic... guess i was only thinking of sch.
    and ignoring the fact that you choose to say that most NMs are immune to certain debuffs, because when it gets down to it, most enemies are immune to the good enfeebles...

    it's not that blu cant do that with sleeps. but what's the point in doing that... you're just increasing the chance of your sleep being resisted if the battles keep going... Yes you reset the timer on sleep, and yes you deal damage in the process with a stun, but if the mob is a pld, that can be dangerous... Most people tend to forget blu can only have a maximum of 20 spells and still has to wait 1 min after reseting them.

    I'm not saying blu is not a powerful job. people can vouch for how well geared my blu is and how well i play the job. I'm trying to say that people need to take a step back and realize that comparing apples to oranges is not a good idea. Rdm !=! Blu and people really need to stop trying to make rdm into what blu is. vice versa. Both jobs excel at what they're good at. Rdm's happens to be mainly enfeebles. not sword swinging, not healing, not dark magic, not elemental magic either. Granted they use to be able to do all of those things very well, it's just annoying to see all the crying and whining about Cure V, regen iv, more enfeebles, more job abilities, and more melee abilities...
    (0)

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