Thief's knife upgrade

[Arcon]

That thread was closed because it wasn't on topic, don't kid yourself.

I know, how is that different to what I said? Why wasn't it on-topic? Because of people who don't wanna read/understand what the issue is and comment with worthless opinions and we get frustrated of explaining over and over again what the issue is. And then you have people who, even after explaining the issue, still don't get it and try to defend their position. Then either they won't admit they were wrong because of their undeserved pride or they just don't understand it because of their inferior intellect, and keep retorting, as if this was a matter of opinion. From there it escalates, and that's why that thread was closed, and it's precisely where this one is headed, probably for the best.

I'm not reading a 25 page thread (that was closed) to see if my comment would be answered first in a thread separate to the OP. This thread is NOT the other one!

Yes, it just has the same title, is about the same topic and the same people talk in it. But the thread ID is different, that's right.

Incoming 2nd locked Thief's Knife thread.

One can only hope at this point.

[Karbuncle]

Its a shame when the absolute stupidity and ignorance of a few people can cause intelligent problem solving and solution making into a bickering cesspool of ignorant babble.

You know who I'm talking too, and you should feel ashamed of yourselves. Its one thing to simply not understand a problem, Its another thing entirely to smear this lack of understand up and down an otherwise constructive thread to the point it becomes locked.

The solutions in the previous thread are still there to view, and the final one we all pretty much agreed upon would still be the best bet. Its not that long of a thread, And theres a lot of interesting debates in there. If you can't take the time to educate yourself properly please do not spend the remaining time bathing in your ignorance and splashing it on others for the sake of drawing attention to yourself.

Much appreciated.

Incoming 2nd locked Thief's Knife thread.

Edit: And for those too daft to read even the OP of the first thread,

Add a Piece of ARMOR (Visible or not, Something other than weapon) That has something like...:

Thief's Band
(ring)
Fluffstat(Or not)
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1
Lv.90~+?

Latent Active when Thief's Knife is not equipped. This removes the need to wear a weapon that will nerf us, and will be as convenient as Gloves/Feet currently are (Easily equipped/removed without hurting out DPS so badly)

This is the current Best solution. If you can't understand why, I can already imagine how you play THF, and I hate the color Pink.

Edit2: To explain it simply. Thief, While not a Magnificent DD, Is still at heart a DD. We TH, And we want to TH, but we dont want our TH to be a burden to us. The Thief's Knife is a level 70 Weapon, its outdated in every right. The problem is using this Weapon hurts out DoT. In places like Dynamis and what have you where DoT/DPS Is quite important, Sacrificing our Damage for more TH is just a choice we should have to make.

Should a WHM have to chose between Regen, or Cure? Haste or Cure? No

Should a RDM have to chose between Convert and Refresh? no

In the same light, I Feel Thief should not have to chose between Treasure Hunter, or Damage.

We should be able to put on a Mandau/Coruscanti combo and be able to still get our Full TH power as it is. The problem is merely the weapon, Our other pieces are fine. The issue is a weapon is not easily swapped out, because of the lose of TP. So in places like Dynamis where mobs come and go quickly, You're forced a choice between Lowering your Damage, and thus, Currency output, or Lowering your TH, and chancing less currency output.

Other situations would for instance be farming pop items for Abyssea NMs (for t1's etc), and so forth.

Now, the reason the above is an issue in the first place is because its not always our choice to decide of we want full TH, or Full DD. THF Is forced to go Full TH, Linkshells or what have you. The job itself is based around this in the eyes of the community. We're merely asking that, if we are to be Treasure hunters through and through, That we can at least maintain our role as that and still contribute to the damage of the party. To feel useful outside of Treasure hunter.

And so forth I hope that makes more sense.

Edit?: Also, Noodles, Cut back a tiny bit on the cursing. It hurts my head too, But no use getting yourself Banned friend.

[Morgantisthedon]

IT seems people on here dont know how to communicate w/o cussing or personal attacking people.
Yes I do know the game, yes i have been playing forever. Yes my main was thief for a long time. Have my posts been rude or attacking people .... No. This is where you and others I pay little attention to and disregard your post. Because your post has no meaning for me and I dunno why a SE moderator doesnt ban you for personal attacks or cussing. Hello this isnt wikki or ffxiah.com. Its the offical forums where actions can be taken against you. Sometime players forget that and need to be reminded. Or you just dont care in which sure go ahead flame on and continue to be disrespectul and rude. I might type bad but I do have points in what I am saying.


All i said is incoperperating a update and change to any old wpn or armour woud issue in a whole slue of people wanting to update other non important pieces for everything. Adding a second wpn dagger would just meen people duo wield it.
Various option could be done to improve it remove it sure. Chances are this will never happen. At most i could see the "rare" from it removed. This would alllow some for of update from FoV elite fights if anything.

I just dont agree with upgrading this via trials. As stated before this would open up people wanting this and that all updated. As I said it is fine for what it does adds th. At the cost of a minor loss in damage and a w/e offhand wpn thats sub par at best. But used soley for the perpose of th.
There is no reason to hate
Dont be a internet hero and try to verbaly assult me or trash me because what I say doesnt back with what you want. I offered diffrent options for coming up with other solutions on the idea.

Karbuncle I read your post after I was typing up mine. The latent effect is awsome on that ring btw. This is why i said add the option to something outside of wpn to a diffrent piece of gear in previous post.
I do agree that ring is what we need or somethign similar.
That is something I can go for. Its not a weapon and is fine so it fits perfect with exactly what thf knife needs. (basicaly just not used lol) Just be removed and implemented somewhere else.
I actually think I missed your edit on page one when I read and missed some pages for some my readings was hard to filter some that out so i do appologize on that note i got ADD and my attention span is short.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Should a WHM have to chose between Regen, or Cure? Haste or Cure? No

Should a RDM have to chose between Convert and Refresh? no

In the same light, I Feel Thief should not have to chose between Treasure Hunter, or Damage.

Those are not even the same. Wielding a Thief's Knife only helps with your natural job trait, whether you wear it or not you can still gain the same TH with or without it, it'll just take longer to build it up over time.

Gaining their traits on weapons, armour and accessories isn't something only THF suffers, loads of equipment grants similar effects for many jobs. As you level it just becomes outdated and no longer gets used.

While I do think perhaps THF should have gained possibly another TH piece. Stating a Knife that is exactly the same as any other "trait enhancing piece" requires an update simply because it's TH is silly. Comparing a piece of equipment that enhances a trait but does not remove it to a spell/JA is absurd.

[Karbuncle]

Those are not even the same. Wielding a Thief's Knife only helps with your natural job trait, whether you wear it or not you can still gain the same TH with or without it, it'll just take longer to build it up over time.

While this I agree with, a philosphy i myself hold too, thus, I don't use a Thief's Knife when I'm in control.

Not everyone agrees with your mindset. If you continued reading, You saw i said "The reason this is a big problem is because we as a THF community are forced to use this such weapon by the leaders of shells and what have you".

Because the leader wants the best TH, and you may even get the Leader who feels the need to make you full time the gear.

Yah, If he does that, He's pretty dumb, But in a game revolving around team work, You either listen, Or you deal with shout groups, or don't get content done.

And shout groups might even fall back under the first problem. The only reason, again, this is an issue, Is because its forced on us.

We as a Community know and understand our roles, Treasure Hunter, But we do have the secondary role of DD, Hate control, What have you. What We, or I, Am asking is to be able to fullfill those goals without this 1 Particular limitation. I'm not asking to remove TH, Add 1 Mega-TH Item, or anything of the sort. What i ask is this 1 Item that binds us to be removed or replaced in some manor that won't effect our jobs other aspects. including DD.

Can i admit my examples were a bit extreme? Yah. Are they "not the same"? No. Curing and Hasting are two aspects of WHM, Dealing Damage and Treasure Hunter are THFs two aspects of it. While i stretched it to the extreme, I stand by my example in its most basic meaning.

THF is being forced to perform one task which robs it of efficiency in another task. And yes, It is forced if we ever want to enjoy playing our favorite jobs. As a THF community, to those of us who hold THF as our Favorite job, Who go as far as to get Relics for it, And so on, We enjoy playing the job, We don't mind being TH Whores, But we do mind being forced to impact our Damage for the sake of that trait.

We only ask this one thorn in our side be removed. We're not asking for anything else. Can you say you cannot see the simplicity and logic behind such a request?

Gaining their traits on weapons, armour and accessories isn't something only THF suffers

This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't a weapon, No one complains about Assassin Armlets, or Raider's Poullaines, Its just the weapon, and even that would not be anywhere near an issue if it wasn't for the fact we are forced to wear this, or forced to not go to events as that job.

While maybe this is not something you feel, Its common place for linkshell leaders and what have you to do such things to a Thief.

loads of equipment grants similar effects for many jobs. As you level it just becomes outdated and no longer gets used.

True, Thief's Knife however is terribly outdated, But still we are forced to use it. Think of it like... You know, I can't even give you a good Comparison, Because there isn't one that accurately represents the situation here.

It would be like if MNK Couldn't use counterstance unless he was wearing a pair of Cross-Counters. So in order to tank effectively, He'd had to stop using his Vereth and switch to Cross-counters. Thats the best i can come up with.

Would MNKs not be saying "This is unacceptable, Can we please change this to be on something other than a weapon?" As we are now?

You as your lovely Level 6 Monk, If you could not use Counterstance unless you were wearing an Outdated weapon, would you not be asking SE for a change or replacement to that in the form of Armor instead of weaponry?

I mean, You still get ~10% Counter from the Job Trait, as THF Still gets TH5 from Other places, But you couldn't do it as effectively as you should.

a MNK Wouldn't be invited to Tank with no Counterstance (hypothetically), and a THF Won't be invited to the party unless he has TH6. Because you can be replaced with someone who does have it.

Is it not true Counterstance only helps the Natural job Trait Counter, as a Thief's Knife only helps the Natural job trait TH?

So Hopefully that hypothetical example landed a bit closer to home. Its basic meaning is, "We're asked to do this, Or we're not invited", so what we want is "To be able to do this, as well as perform our best as a DD, But not equipping a now 25 levels outdated weapon".

I understand the natural lust or need some of you must have to argue with someone over the internet, But this request is far from absurd, and if any of you were in a similar position with your favorite jobs, I dare you to say you would not be looking for a solution to the problem at hand.

Its a tiny improvement to the job, But an improvement no less. It would take mere moments to put in a Ring like i described above, and SE would have fixed a thorn in the side of every THF.

TL;DR:

read it

For the record, This isn't all entirely directed at you Quoted man. I tend to babble in a generalized way sometimes.

Okay always

[Arcon]

IT seems people on here dont know how to communicate w/o cussing or personal attacking people.

We know how and we do it every day. But not to everyone, and maybe that should be a sign to you. Do you think we don't like you because you disagree with us? Or because you can't type well? No, disagreeing is fine, and sadly good typing isn't required at all to use the internet. Plenty of people disagree with trial upgrades, me too. I also disagree with Karby about the ring, and I'm not giving him a hard time about it either.

No, we don't like you because you're like a kid putting his fingers in his ears and screaming, not hearing or wanting to hear what we have to say. It's one thing to have a different opinion, it's another to have your facts wrong. We can and will call you out on that, for example, like you just said in the same post, that it's a "minor loss of damage". That's wrong, it's a signifcant loss of damage, and it will get a lot worse over time.

If a Lv30 Double Attack piece is overshadowed by a Lv90 Haste piece, people will use that instead. However, people still use lower level pieces that are useful in certain situations (think of various jobs' artifact armor), the solution to that is macroing. And normally, macroing gear has no drawback to normal battle performance, however in this one single case it does, because in this case, you will lose TP if you macro it all the time. Losing TP, however, is not related to TH, it's so people don't abuse different weapons to increase the TP gain phase and the WS phase at the same time. The TH effect on the Thief's Knife simply suffers from a game mechanic that doesn't have anything at all to do with it. It's an innocent bystander. That's why it's special and deserves special attention.

Those are not even the same. Wielding a Thief's Knife only helps with your natural job trait, whether you wear it or not you can still gain the same TH with or without it, it'll just take longer to build it up over time.

This is horribly misleading. First of all, not all mobs will give you enough time to build it up to the same level at all. Especially going back to our farming scenario, mobs will usually die before you get a single TH upgrade. And secondly, if you do get an upgrade, that would mean that with Thief's Knife, you would still be one ahead. So the formally correct statement would be, you can not match the same TH effect without a Thief's Knife.

TL;DR:

read it

/rage

[Morgantisthedon]

Hey Arcon i got question for you since we both on same page for a better th dagger in some way. Wouldnt incoperating another Dagger simlar to treasure hunter+1 as a finshed product for any current trial maginal wpn be acceptable? Even added to relic and mythic and emperian or any elemental path.
In theroy we could custom fit our dagger to how we want it not be stuck with a set lv 70 one or with iffy stats on a dagger we dont like how its built.

The only issues i see with this is SE allowing both to be worn.

A) having a lentent of " TH on it"( which only applies to if your main job is set to thief). As some the daggers are weildable by dnc and brd also.
This could also be a welcomed added update for more th on those 2 jobs also if SE deemed acceptable since thf still will be the top dog in the TH department. If they dont add the lantent



So I came up with a sollution. Take the latent effect off the ring and add it to the maginal trial for 99 be it for any wpn. In theory it would allow you to build the dagger of your liking and add TH onto it.

The issue with the above I see though would be the following
A) only allowing one wpn with the said TH attribute to be allowed to be wore at once. This is of course would work if SE deems it ok to duo wield them. Then woudlnt matter.
We would then see mutiple th in on and off hand. Both would have stats we would enjoy and to our liking and be able to have a specific wpn we wont have to swap.

B) If Se deems duo weilding 2 set wpns with th is to much. Maybe incoperate" latent: of does not stack other TH+ wpns "?

Maybe by doing this would show merrit to why theif dagger is lvl 70 and we leave it in the dust instead trying to upgrade it Now we can just do the wpn we like and build it how we want then add TH as final trial at 99.

[Delvish]

TL;DR:

read it

Rofl.

TIL, that posts need to be more than 10 characters.

[Vold]

TL;DR:

read it

That's very good I'm going to use that.

[SpankWustler]

Because the leader wants the best TH, and you may even get the Leader who feels the need to make you full time the gear.

Maybe I'm just spoiled from only doing stuff with friends recently, but my brain just refuses to believe that anyone so misinformed would be allowed to lead anything by anyone else. My heart, however, pumps the darkest ichor of pessimism and tells me that such a thing has happened and will happen again. I am unsure which vital organ to believe, and my stomach refuses to break the tie because I had mixed vegetables for dinner.

Expounding on how much worse Thief's Knife has gotten compared to it's effect on damage at level 75, soon there will be Assassin's Armlets +2 with Treasure Hunter +2, unless a last-minute change is made. More Treasure Hunter in a slot that is infinitely less awful. How, again, is Thief's Knife okay?