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  1. #21
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    The reason staff and club do not give relic spells is because they give relic weapon skills. It is SE's intent for all relic weapons to be used to melee.

    Ghorn gives a useful but small bonus to Ballad and Scherzo and otherwise provides the exact same bonuses as many other easier-to-obtain instruments. No, there might not be a precedent for relic weapons providing unique spells, but there is a precedent of gear providing unique spells (see Twilight Cloak).

    I realize that this might end up derailing the thread, but if you have the means to obtain a WHM +2 body then you have the means to obtain Owleyes, Serpentes, and Stearc. You are right that you will not get the full benefit since you will not be idling 100% of the time.

    Means yes but no the time nor desire. 95%+ of this games population isn't unemployed at home playing all hours of the day. They don't even play a few hours everyday. You got +2 body and possibly a refresh hairpin, the hands / feet are also an option but rarely full timed. That's it, all, the end, no more.

    The reason staff and club do not give relic spells is because they give relic weapon skills. It is SE's intent for all relic weapons to be used to melee.
    And BRD has access to relic Dagger / Magian Dagger and Mythic Dagger, there is your special relic "move". And you conveniently forgot about the other two special items, neither Aegis nor OChain provide a special "spell" or ability to a PLD. Currently there is zero reason to have a relic song, plus you DO NOT WANT ONE. Just look at the relic WS's, most are complete trash, do you really want SE to give you a useless song on your G.Horn in absence of better stats? If it's worth anything then SE would be screwing over the 99+% of players who don't have a relic horn by giving it exclusively to a G.Horn BRD. Any songs should be included as scrolls and instead have the G.Horn enhance the song in such a way that it significantly exceeds the capability of non-Ghorn users. Something on the lines of +25% potency across the board on top of the "All Songs+4". Allow this to exceed the potency caps of the songs. Thus a GHorn BRD would be able to buff a party beyond anything a non-GHorn BRD could do, but wouldn't break the game. You do NOT want to break the game's balance, the result of doing this is to become the next RDM and pretty much devoid of good gear / spells / abilities for the rest of FFXI's existence.
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player Retsujo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Retsujo
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    And you do relize that other then spamming chests for a refresh+1 hairpin, there's not much else a WHM can wear for refresh right? You have the hands / feet combo but their switching in / out of those so often (along with the head) that the extra MP/tick isn't fully counted.
    Another off topic post! Sorry >_>

    Konschtat gold box Refresh hairpin [Head](+1mp/tic)
    Empyrean Armor +2 [Body](+2mp/tic)
    Abyssea Altepa Brygid quest pants [Legs](+1/tic)
    WotG completion reward augment [earring](with weapon sheathed - 1mp/tic)
    Owleyes [club](1mp/tic)
    Serpentes armor set [hands](nighttime only)+feet(daytime only)](1mp/tic)
    Lv60+ w/Summoner subjob (1mp/tic)

    That right there is 8mp/tic Auto Refresh. 7mp/tic really, because no WHM really subs SMN anymore.
    In addition to that, you have other pieces you can add under certain circumstances to push it even further

    Chrysopoeia Torque [Neck](latent 1mp/tic - triggered by consuming 1TP for every 1MP refreshed)
    Poison Taster's cape [Back](poisoned: 1mp/tic)
    There's quite a few more, but their conditions aren't really convenient to come by.

    With WHM's auto regen and loading yourself with poison pots, you could get an extra 2MP/tic to get 10mp/tic total auto refresh. In addition to Refresh atmas, you could actually end up with 25mp/tic. Alternatively (for the melee whm), you can trade out the auto-refresh augment on wotg reward earring for auto-regain and use the torque to keep a consistent 9mp/tic. Tack on anywhere from a Refresh I from RDM to a Ballad III+II from BRD with Gjallahorn 90 and EA Pants +2, and you can get from 12-23mp/tic.

    In any case, I disagree with your statement that WHM doesn't have much auto-refresh options on gear.

    On topic, that doesn't mean that a Gjallarhorn is not worth having for Ballads. Or at all, really. I kinda hope the 99 update increases the "All Songs+" into both effect AND duration for all songs, not one or the other. That would probably make it the top-tier instrument again, and seperate the Relic BRDs from the non.
    (0)
    Through the confinement of Valefor I found myself in the depths of Hades. It was there that I was thrown into Cerberus' Den. Only through Carbuncle's light could I find my way.

  3. #23
    Player detlef's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Means yes but no the time nor desire. 95%+ of this games population isn't unemployed at home playing all hours of the day. They don't even play a few hours everyday. You got +2 body and possibly a refresh hairpin, the hands / feet are also an option but rarely full timed. That's it, all, the end, no more.
    The part of the population that cares about Voidwatch certainly should be looking at maxing out their idle set. I mean, that IS what we are talking about right? I can't imagine what else you could be bringing 2 PLD to. Voidwatch is something you shouldn't really be devoting massive amounts of time to unless you're essentially capped on Abyssea because Abyssea is so much more rewarding for the amount of time spent.

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    And BRD has access to relic Dagger / Magian Dagger and Mythic Dagger, there is your special relic "move". And you conveniently forgot about the other two special items, neither Aegis nor OChain provide a special "spell" or ability to a PLD.
    I love how you say "conveniently" as if I intentionally didn't mention Mandau or Mythic because I intended to mislead or misinform. Aegis and Ochain don't provide a special spell or ability because they already have unique and unmatched traits. It should be readily apparent to anybody how awesome and unique these shields are. As for Mandau and Mythic, what's your point? We're talking about Ghorn. I think you're trying to argue that BRD with it's B- dagger skill being able to use Mandau is somehow the same as a melee with A/A- skill and actual melee JA/gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Currently there is zero reason to have a relic song, plus you DO NOT WANT ONE. Just look at the relic WS's, most are complete trash, do you really want SE to give you a useless song on your G.Horn in absence of better stats? If it's worth anything then SE would be screwing over the 99+% of players who don't have a relic horn by giving it exclusively to a G.Horn BRD. Any songs should be included as scrolls and instead have the G.Horn enhance the song in such a way that it significantly exceeds the capability of non-Ghorn users. Something on the lines of +25% potency across the board on top of the "All Songs+4". Allow this to exceed the potency caps of the songs. Thus a GHorn BRD would be able to buff a party beyond anything a non-GHorn BRD could do, but wouldn't break the game. You do NOT want to break the game's balance, the result of doing this is to become the next RDM and pretty much devoid of good gear / spells / abilities for the rest of FFXI's existence.
    It's pretty clear from availability of 91-95 spells that SE does not care whether everybody can get every spell. Your suggestion isn't horrible. Daurdabla already has its niche as the special instrument that lets you have a 3rd song. Ghorn has always been the king of potency (well, in theory). Its unique trait could be additional potency above and beyond all instruments. But Ghorn shared its +2 status with a dozen instruments at 75 and +3 instruments were introduced at the same time as Ghorn 80, 85, and 90 trials. So it seems to me that SE does not value keeping Ghorn's potency ahead of the pack.

    Which brings us to where we are. I think SE will give us +4 on the Ghorn99. Even if by some miracle SE does not introduce +4 instruments, the benefit of +4 over +3 is very small due to skill and haste caps. Even if you add an additional +25% (as you mention in your example), you are still limited by caps. Haste caps. Scherzo caps. Refresh becomes redundant.

    The whole reason we're even talking about a Ghorn-specific song is because of this post by Camate:

    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post168159

    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    We have plans to [add Massacre Elegy]. However, when considering the stats, we are planning to make it so this isn’t a song that can be used by just anyone.
    That quote is the reason people speculate over and clamor for a relic song. Because SE hinted at it. As I've said multiple times before, I'm not convinced that SE will put Ghorn99's potency ahead of the pack. And even if it did, this would not be a sufficient anyway. It needs something on beyond that.
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player Creelo's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Character
    Creelo
    World
    Sylph
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    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    Awesomesauce.
    Thank you for that post!

    Saevel, I'm sorry if this is "snide" or "childish" but please just stop.
    (0)

  5. #25
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Saevel
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    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    The part of the population that cares about Voidwatch certainly should be looking at maxing out their idle set. I mean, that IS what we are talking about right? I can't imagine what else you could be bringing 2 PLD to. Voidwatch is something you shouldn't really be devoting massive amounts of time to unless you're essentially capped on Abyssea because Abyssea is so much more rewarding for the amount of time spent.

    I love how you say "conveniently" as if I intentionally didn't mention Mandau or Mythic because I intended to mislead or misinform. Aegis and Ochain don't provide a special spell or ability because they already have unique and unmatched traits. It should be readily apparent to anybody how awesome and unique these shields are. As for Mandau and Mythic, what's your point? We're talking about Ghorn. I think you're trying to argue that BRD with it's B- dagger skill being able to use Mandau is somehow the same as a melee with A/A- skill and actual melee JA/gear?

    It's pretty clear from availability of 91-95 spells that SE does not care whether everybody can get every spell. Your suggestion isn't horrible. Daurdabla already has its niche as the special instrument that lets you have a 3rd song. Ghorn has always been the king of potency (well, in theory). Its unique trait could be additional potency above and beyond all instruments. But Ghorn shared its +2 status with a dozen instruments at 75 and +3 instruments were introduced at the same time as Ghorn 80, 85, and 90 trials. So it seems to me that SE does not value keeping Ghorn's potency ahead of the pack.

    Which brings us to where we are. I think SE will give us +4 on the Ghorn99. Even if by some miracle SE does not introduce +4 instruments, the benefit of +4 over +3 is very small due to skill and haste caps. Even if you add an additional +25% (as you mention in your example), you are still limited by caps. Haste caps. Scherzo caps. Refresh becomes redundant.

    The whole reason we're even talking about a Ghorn-specific song is because of this post by Camate:

    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post168159

    That quote is the reason people speculate over and clamor for a relic song. Because SE hinted at it. As I've said multiple times before, I'm not convinced that SE will put Ghorn99's potency ahead of the pack. And even if it did, this would not be a sufficient anyway. It needs something on beyond that.
    Aegis is in the same category as G.Horn, it's a special relic. The rest are weapons that give special weaponskills, not spells. And you do realize that OChain piss's all over Aegis most of the time right? We have both in our shell and the tanks have already made the comments that SE needs to seriously overhaul Aegis in some way. Our Aegis PLD is working on an OChain right now because it's that much of an improvement.

    And do you ~REALLY~ want to go into the other relic weapons relative "usefulness"? Need I bring up ... claustrum? Yeah go tell the BLM's and SMNs that because they got a relic WS that BRD should get a special song on their G.Horns. Go tell the DRG's that cause they got such an awesome relic WS that BRD should get an awesome relic song. G.Horn in it's current state is already extremely useful, was it as "ZOMG come to our LS and we'll give you all our loots" as it was at 75, no it's not. It's already above and beyond most if not all of the other relics.

    And like I said earlier, do you really want SE, the kings of useless additions, to be adding a "relic song" to your G.Horns? You really should go play RDM if you want to know what SE thinks of enfeebles in general. If its' a good one then the NM's will be immune to it, if it lands then it'll be weak and nearly ineffective.
    (0)

  6. #26
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Retsujo View Post
    Another off topic post! Sorry >_>

    Konschtat gold box Refresh hairpin [Head](+1mp/tic)
    Empyrean Armor +2 [Body](+2mp/tic)
    Abyssea Altepa Brygid quest pants [Legs](+1/tic)
    WotG completion reward augment [earring](with weapon sheathed - 1mp/tic)
    Owleyes [club](1mp/tic)
    Serpentes armor set [hands](nighttime only)+feet(daytime only)](1mp/tic)
    Lv60+ w/Summoner subjob (1mp/tic)

    That right there is 8mp/tic Auto Refresh. 7mp/tic really, because no WHM really subs SMN anymore.
    In addition to that, you have other pieces you can add under certain circumstances to push it even further

    Chrysopoeia Torque [Neck](latent 1mp/tic - triggered by consuming 1TP for every 1MP refreshed)
    Poison Taster's cape [Back](poisoned: 1mp/tic)
    There's quite a few more, but their conditions aren't really convenient to come by.

    With WHM's auto regen and loading yourself with poison pots, you could get an extra 2MP/tic to get 10mp/tic total auto refresh. In addition to Refresh atmas, you could actually end up with 25mp/tic. Alternatively (for the melee whm), you can trade out the auto-refresh augment on wotg reward earring for auto-regain and use the torque to keep a consistent 9mp/tic. Tack on anywhere from a Refresh I from RDM to a Ballad III+II from BRD with Gjallahorn 90 and EA Pants +2, and you can get from 12-23mp/tic.

    In any case, I disagree with your statement that WHM doesn't have much auto-refresh options on gear.

    On topic, that doesn't mean that a Gjallarhorn is not worth having for Ballads. Or at all, really. I kinda hope the 99 update increases the "All Songs+" into both effect AND duration for all songs, not one or the other. That would probably make it the top-tier instrument again, and seperate the Relic BRDs from the non.

    And they'll have none of those equipped the majority of the time, except possibly the earring. You can look up the vanadiel consensus to see how many players have finished WoTG. The hands / feet / legs (seriously you tried to throw that into there) are constantly going to be switched out for better gear.

    This isn't BG, there is no "get gear" button in the MH that gives you these things.
    (1)

  7. #27
    Player detlef's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    Aegis is in the same category as G.Horn, it's a special relic. The rest are weapons that give special weaponskills, not spells. And you do realize that OChain piss's all over Aegis most of the time right? We have both in our shell and the tanks have already made the comments that SE needs to seriously overhaul Aegis in some way. Our Aegis PLD is working on an OChain right now because it's that much of an improvement.
    If you can't see the value of Aegis I just don't know what to say. I suppose Ochain does piss on Aegis for easy content. So if you care about Seiryu or something, I guess Ochain is the shield for you. The main point is that the use of both shields is highly situational and I'd say you could make arguments for supporting either shield as being more broken than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    And do you ~REALLY~ want to go into the other relic weapons relative "usefulness"? Need I bring up ... claustrum? Yeah go tell the BLM's and SMNs that because they got a relic WS that BRD should get a special song on their G.Horns. Go tell the DRG's that cause they got such an awesome relic WS that BRD should get an awesome relic song. G.Horn in it's current state is already extremely useful, was it as "ZOMG come to our LS and we'll give you all our loots" as it was at 75, no it's not. It's already above and beyond most if not all of the other relics.
    I think we can agree that you needn't bring up Claustrum at all. It's irrelevant to the conversation. It's a joke of a weapon and a misguided attempt to provide mages with a melee weapon.

    As I stated, all relic weapons are intended to be melee weapons. They generally do not enhance the any other aspect of the job. Well aside from Apocalypse, Bravura, and Spharai, which all enhance tanking ability. As for DRG, their relic WS is meh and if they care about such things, they probably should be up in arms. That's their call.

    Ghorn is above and beyond you say? Please tell me how in 2011 Ghorn is above and beyond most if not all other relics. Keep in mind that any BRD can cap Marches now. Keep in mind that there's a Ballad +1 harp and +1 Ballad on Empy legs. Keep in mind that +3 instruments are available for every important song aside from Scherzo and Carol. Keep in mind that Sublimation, Refresh II, numerous auto-refresh pieces are available, along with atmas in Abyssea and temp items in Voidwatch. Oh and /RDM Refresh/Convert, /SCH Sublimation, and Evoker's Roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    And like I said earlier, do you really want SE, the kings of useless additions, to be adding a "relic song" to your G.Horns? You really should go play RDM if you want to know what SE thinks of enfeebles in general. If its' a good one then the NM's will be immune to it, if it lands then it'll be weak and nearly ineffective.
    Do you think I want a useless relic song? Absolutely not. That would be pointless. Who would request such a thing? I want something useful and awesome.

    Incidentally, Elegy, Finale, and Threnody land on almost everything, save for the rare NM that is strong against that element. I'm not sure how RDM enfeebles are relevant to this discussion. This is the BRD forum.
    (2)

  8. #28
    Player Retsujo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Retsujo
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    And they'll have none of those equipped the majority of the time, except possibly the earring. You can look up the vanadiel consensus to see how many players have finished WoTG. The hands / feet / legs (seriously you tried to throw that into there) are constantly going to be switched out for better gear.
    That doesn't kill their invaluable usefulness when not doing anything. Swapping to the gear you need for the spells you're casting at the time then swapping back to the refresh gear inbetween spells (even if just for a tic or two) can really help you out in the end. It's probably about as useful in comparison to SMN subjob back at 75 cap before SCH came around, but regardless of how impracticle it might seem, it's still a nice option to have when you don't have time to /heal for MP.

    And the argument wasn't "You won't wear them a lot of the time" it was "There isn't much refresh gear for WHM." Unless of course I missed something.

    No more derailing! >_>
    (0)
    Through the confinement of Valefor I found myself in the depths of Hades. It was there that I was thrown into Cerberus' Den. Only through Carbuncle's light could I find my way.

  9. #29
    Player Reain's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    64
    Character
    Reain
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    I think what most G.horn owners want at 99 is along the lines of:

    CHR+10 Singing Skill +25 Wind Instrument Skill +25
    All songs +4 "Massacre Elegy"
    Gjallarhorn skill bypasses skill cap on songs

    e.g. Scherzo would anull 55% with 99 G.horn/Emp. Feet+2

    Other things I'd like because I'm greedy/unrealistic

    For G.horn
    More CHR/Singing/Wind skill
    All Songs +5 instead of 4(and All songs+4 Ninja'd onto the level 95 G.horn)
    Silence Immunity Aura/Sphere (incl. bard)
    Enhances the Augments song effect of the empyrean set bonus
    Adds additional effects to Songs
    My G.horn to always have 1 more +All songs than Creelo's G.horn when he gets his.
    Ability to triple proc songs


    Other misc things for bard

    Tier3 march/mambo/madrigal
    rest of tier 2 carols including light and dark
    tier2 threnody(this can be 1 song that lowers resistance to all elements)
    Magic Finale II(dispels mutliple effects)
    Foe Sirvente to prevent a full CE/VE hate reset on things such as horrid roar
    Pining Nocturne to stack with Addle
    Adding a new song that reduces enemy magic defense(from Job Adjustments Manifesto)
    Revising enemy resistance to Foe Requiem(from Job Adjustments Manifesto)
    Pianissimo to stack with teunto
    Marcato put back to 2x instead of 1.5x like it was on the test server
    Goddess's Hymunus to be a 1hr Reraise effect instead of a song effect
    New songs with effects exclusive to bard.
    A Carnwenhan exclusive song
    A Daurdabla exclusive song


    Anyone have any ideas on what they would want the merited bard 2HR to be? And the other merits at 99? And the stats on bard AF2+3?
    (3)

  10. #30
    Player Creelo's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    265
    Character
    Creelo
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Reain View Post
    I think what most G.horn owners want at 99 is along the lines of:

    CHR+10 Singing Skill +25 Wind Instrument Skill +25
    All songs +4 "Massacre Elegy"
    Gjallarhorn skill bypasses skill cap on songs

    e.g. Scherzo would anull 55% with 99 G.horn/Emp. Feet+2

    Other things I'd like because I'm greedy/unrealistic

    For G.horn
    More CHR/Singing/Wind skill
    All Songs +5 instead of 4(and All songs+4 Ninja'd onto the level 95 G.horn)
    Silence Immunity Aura/Sphere (incl. bard)
    Enhances the Augments song effect of the empyrean set bonus
    Adds additional effects to Songs
    My G.horn to always have 1 more +All songs than Creelo's G.horn when he gets his.
    Ability to triple proc songs


    Other misc things for bard

    Tier3 march/mambo/madrigal
    rest of tier 2 carols including light and dark
    tier2 threnody(this can be 1 song that lowers resistance to all elements)
    Magic Finale II(dispels mutliple effects)
    Foe Sirvente to prevent a full CE/VE hate reset on things such as horrid roar
    Pining Nocturne to stack with Addle
    Adding a new song that reduces enemy magic defense(from Job Adjustments Manifesto)
    Revising enemy resistance to Foe Requiem(from Job Adjustments Manifesto)
    Pianissimo to stack with teunto
    Marcato put back to 2x instead of 1.5x like it was on the test server
    Goddess's Hymunus to be a 1hr Reraise effect instead of a song effect
    New songs with effects exclusive to bard.
    A Carnwenhan exclusive song
    A Daurdabla exclusive song
    I'm down!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reain View Post
    My G.horn to always have 1 more +All songs than Creelo's G.horn when he gets his.
    Hey!! Wait!! D:
    (0)

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