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  1. #11
    Player Flionheart's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok
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    98
    Character
    Flionheart
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    The difference is that no relic weapon ever has put the user tiers upon tiers ahead of other people without the relic. Giving a buff song that is adequately strong enough to justify the work put in for the relic would make the BRD who had it completely overpowered compared to those without.

    If anything the Carnwenhan should get a bigger buff, because it is trailing behind both instruments.
    (1)

  2. #12
    Player Creelo's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    265
    Character
    Creelo
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Flionheart View Post
    The difference is that no relic weapon ever has put the user tiers upon tiers ahead of other people without the relic. Giving a buff song that is adequately strong enough to justify the work put in for the relic would make the BRD who had it completely overpowered compared to those without.

    If anything the Carnwenhan should get a bigger buff, because it is trailing behind both instruments.
    The problem is that Gjallarhorn doesn't put the Brd up to another tier at all compared to those without. We don't know what kind of buff song it would be (if it even will get one), so to say Brd with Gjallarhorn buff like you said would become "completely overpowered" is subjective and moot. Your definition of "completely overpowered" isn't defined at all either.

    Relics like Aegis/Apoc/Gun do put those players noticeably ahead of those without when properly used.

    Carnwenhan is a little underwhelming; however, I'd still choose it over a Gjallarhorn given the choice. Carnwenhan's great for Brd's who need to multitask, Main heal, or be heavy support. I would absolutely love to have an extra 42 seconds on songs (believe it's currently 42 anyways, 24 + 6 + 6 + 6 = IV?) to allow for me to do other support roles like Curing, Hasting, etc. All Gjallarhorn would provide is pretty much extra MP that isn't needed...

    At the current cap, I'd definitely rank Duardabla > Carnwenhan > Gjallarhorn.

    Finally, you always relate the idea of a Gjallarhorn buff "to those without." The difference between a Gjallarhorn Brd a Non-Gjallarhorn Brd atm is unnoticeable. What would the Brd's without Gjallarhorn be worried about if their Relic finally received a proper buff on the scale of Aegis?
    (2)

  3. #13
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    531
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Creelo View Post
    The problem with all of this is that Ballad isn't really a big deal anymore lol MP regeneration has just become so easy with Atmas, Atmacites, and Temp Items.

    Anyways Gjallarhorn's best use with Ballads can really only be brought out if the same Brd also has a Daurdabla, leading to an 18mp/tick with Ballad x3 after the first cycle of songs.

    Besides, Gjallarhorn will never receive "All Songs +7" lol
    Well I did say that this possible change was unlikely. I fully support Massacre Elegy as being a Gjallarhorn worthy song.

    I didn't factor in Atmas, Atmacites, and Temp Items because I wanted to compare the power of a 75 brd with that of a 95 brd. In terms of that comparison we have gotten weaker in relation to the ballad power multiplier compared to a normal brd. At 75 our ballad was 2.3x as potent as a normal brd and now at 95 our ballad is only 1.4x as potent as a normal brd. I make this comparison because I've yet to meet any Gjallarhorn brd that obtained the relic for reasons other than ballad, since at the time it was the only instrument that affected ballad.
    (0)

  4. #14
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Creelo View Post
    Relic WSs get their own, unique WSs, several of which still currently kinda suck. But some are quite powerful and give great utility (GA, GKT, Relic Gun, Scythe largely come to mind). There's a very clear difference between players with these kind of Relics, and those who don't. There's a big difference (or at least should be x.x) with a Pld with Aegis and one without (discounting Ochain, and Emps in general in this point).

    However, in the case of Gjallarhorn, the difference between Brds that have Gjallarhorn and those that don't is dwindling more and more with each lvl cap increase. It's truly quite pathetic at the lvl 95 cap. If a player has worked hard enough to earn a Relic, there should at least be a fair difference between themselves and players that don't have that Relic.

    I would be worried too if they gave Gjallarhorn some crappy buff song (Death Resistance Song I could see, ugh, could be good, but far too situational and shouldn't really be needed with proper stuns x.x), but even if they did give it a strong buff song, why be so resistant to it? Heaven forbid you should feel inclined to get a Gjallarhorn for reasons other than saving inventory space. Relics are meant to be desirable, and one reason why you don't see all too many new Gjallarhorns nowadays is because it isn't very desirable compared to other options, and especially compared to how it used to be at the lvl 75 cap.
    With all respect to BRDs out there, join the club <kidna>. I mean have you seen the other "relics"? Most are kinda crappy, especially once you compare them to Emperians or even just the available Lv 90+ weapons. Gjallarhorn used to be the best Relic in the game, next was Aegis, then after that Amano and the Gun, then everything else.

    Which brings me to a point, what do you want on your relic instrument? Someone said not CHR / Skill, which means your already capping accuracy / potency? And not "songs+x" which means no bonus potency on top of cap? I'm not wanting to be a dick but just trying to find out what exactly your expecting? G.Horn was awesome because back at 75 refresh was measured in the single digits and you could provide 7mp/tick on your own, which was epic for many things. This has mostly stayed the same, you can provide 11mp/tick, a 57% increase in MP regeneration, along with making your haste buff better, which we all know only gets better the more you stack.

    As for the "BRD's not being desired", I'm sorry but that's complete horse sh!t. Yes your not top pick in the perfect four man "Abyssea" group, but neither are the other 16+ jobs in the game. Your still desired as there are buffs that a BRD gives that can make fights much smoother. Our LS has one G.horn BRD in the tank party at all times, together we give the WHM +18mp/tick to her own +2mp/tick and thus enabling her to spam Cure V constantly outside of abyssea. Our setup is PLD x 2 RDM BRD WHM <other>, usually a THF. You guys also have Cure IV, erase and -na from /WHM, and while not having a large MP pool you have insane MP regeneration from the RDM and your own songs. So I really don't get why anyone would feel a BRD isn't desired, their awesome and extremely useful. Their just not the ZOMG here have all our loots type desired like back at 75.
    (3)

  5. #15
    Player Creelo's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    265
    Character
    Creelo
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    With all respect to BRDs out there, join the club <kidna>. I mean have you seen the other "relics"? Most are kinda crappy, especially once you compare them to Emperians or even just the available Lv 90+ weapons. Gjallarhorn used to be the best Relic in the game, next was Aegis, then after that Amano and the Gun, then everything else.
    This is not a Relic vs. Empy discussion, even though Daurdabla is overall much better than Gjallarhorn.

    Which brings me to a point, what do you want on your relic instrument? Someone said not CHR / Skill, which means your already capping accuracy / potency? And not "songs+x" which means no bonus potency on top of cap? I'm not wanting to be a dick but just trying to find out what exactly your expecting?
    If you've read any of the forums about Gjallarhorn, you'd know that we want some type of specific song just for Gjallarhorn, whether this be a debuff (Massacre Elegy) or a buff, we'd have to wait and see. Basically, while all the relic weapons have been receiving all of these "hidden" buffs such as Relic WS Dmg+25%~ and increased Occasionally deals 2-3 times damage proc rates, and Aegis received its huge update to break the MDT limit, Gjallarhorn hasn't really received anything out of the ordinary.

    If you have a Gjallarhorn, you are already gonna be capping potency for all buffs (only relevant buff to try to cap atm is Scherzo anyways) The CHR/Skill bonuses are like the Acc/Att buffs on other relics, they're expected to go up anyways. The "All Songs +3" is nice, but extra refresh isn't really needed as much these days, and Scherzo is quite situational. "All Songs +4" really won't change Brd much either.

    G.Horn was awesome because back at 75 refresh was measured in the single digits and you could provide 7mp/tick on your own, which was epic for many things. This has mostly stayed the same, you can provide 11mp/tick, a 57% increase in MP regeneration, along with making your haste buff better, which we all know only gets better the more you stack.
    First, a Gjallarhorn Brd should be hitting 13mp/tick due to AF3+2 pants. Anyways, too bad any old Brd can easily get Ballad +2 nowadays from regular gear and provide 9mp/tick, which should be more than enough due to other forms of MP regeneration.

    As for the "BRD's not being desired", I'm sorry but that's complete horse sh!t. Yes your not top pick in the perfect four man "Abyssea" group, but neither are the other 16+ jobs in the game. Your still desired as there are buffs that a BRD gives that can make fights much smoother. Our LS has one G.horn BRD in the tank party at all times, together we give the WHM +18mp/tick to her own +2mp/tick and thus enabling her to spam Cure V constantly outside of abyssea. Our setup is PLD x 2 RDM BRD WHM <other>, usually a THF. You guys also have Cure IV, erase and -na from /WHM, and while not having a large MP pool you have insane MP regeneration from the RDM and your own songs. So I really don't get why anyone would feel a BRD isn't desired, their awesome and extremely useful. Their just not the ZOMG here have all our loots type desired like back at 75.
    Don't think this is directed at me because I never said Brd wasn't desired (Personally I don't see how it can't be desired, since it's the only job to easily allow jobs to hit the magical Haste cap 60%+ of the time through Marcato/Troubadour +March, March. Sch requiring their 2hr to do so is kinda blegh, unless inside Abyssea. Not to mention Brd can stack Carnage Elegy with Slow/II, although not Nocturne with Addle... derp!)

    I'm assuming you're talking about Voidwatch with that set up? In that case, you should be hitting weaknesses enough to allow for your MP to be mostly sustained through your temps. Personally I don't remember the last time I've ever truly needed a Rdm's Refresh II, and I'm the type of Brd to constantly be casting Cure IV/Haste/-Nas/SS/Blink/etc. whenever possible lol

    In any case, all Whm's should strive to get more auto-refresh from gear than just 2mp/tick from their AF3+2 body... :/

    In the end, if you haven't lvl'd up Brd past lvl 1, you should probably stay out of the forums, or at least read them before putting in your input.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player detlef's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Huh? Yeah BRD is great. The only reason it wasn't on top during Abyssea is because the content was easy enough that you could trade BRD for another procing job or dump it altogether for BLM/BRD.

    Incidentally I can give my WHM +18 mp/tic if I wanted to (I don't usually do 3 ballads because it's overkill) and Owleyes, Stearc Subligar, and Serpentes are pretty standard for idle. Wivre Hairpin and Moonshade I place on a different level as far as expecting people people to have it goes.

    I want a Ghorn buff. People don't seem to realize that the +3 or +4 or w/e on Ghorn is rendered meaningless if +3 and +4 instruments are provided. Even if they don't exist (hello Celaeno).
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player Creelo's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    265
    Character
    Creelo
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Totally agree on Ballad x3 lol

    Like Flionsaid earlier, I really wish we had another more mage friendly song buff, but those types of buffs seem to belong to Cor. <.>

    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    I want a Ghorn buff. People don't seem to realize that the +3 or +4 or w/e on Ghorn is rendered meaningless if +3 and +4 instruments are provided. Even if they don't exist (hello Celaeno).
    I think this pretty much sums up my own opinions about Gjallarhorn. I feel like Brd's just so often forgotten about, that the potency of their relic was too. Even if it goes up to "All Songs +4," Gjallarhorn's overall usefulness is still going to be pretty blegh. Who the heck knows what other awesome buffs Relic weapons are gonna be receiving at lvl 99 as well, but they'll probably be better than what Gjallarhorn's gonna get if it stays on its current upgrade track. x.x
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Creelo View Post
    This is not a Relic vs. Empy discussion, even though Daurdabla is overall much better than Gjallarhorn.



    If you've read any of the forums about Gjallarhorn, you'd know that we want some type of specific song just for Gjallarhorn, whether this be a debuff (Massacre Elegy) or a buff, we'd have to wait and see. Basically, while all the relic weapons have been receiving all of these "hidden" buffs such as Relic WS Dmg+25%~ and increased Occasionally deals 2-3 times damage proc rates, and Aegis received its huge update to break the MDT limit, Gjallarhorn hasn't really received anything out of the ordinary.

    If you have a Gjallarhorn, you are already gonna be capping potency for all buffs (only relevant buff to try to cap atm is Scherzo anyways) The CHR/Skill bonuses are like the Acc/Att buffs on other relics, they're expected to go up anyways. The "All Songs +3" is nice, but extra refresh isn't really needed as much these days, and Scherzo is quite situational. "All Songs +4" really won't change Brd much either.



    First, a Gjallarhorn Brd should be hitting 13mp/tick due to AF3+2 pants. Anyways, too bad any old Brd can easily get Ballad +2 nowadays from regular gear and provide 9mp/tick, which should be more than enough due to other forms of MP regeneration.



    Don't think this is directed at me because I never said Brd wasn't desired (Personally I don't see how it can't be desired, since it's the only job to easily allow jobs to hit the magical Haste cap 60%+ of the time through Marcato/Troubadour +March, March. Sch requiring their 2hr to do so is kinda blegh, unless inside Abyssea. Not to mention Brd can stack Carnage Elegy with Slow/II, although not Nocturne with Addle... derp!)

    I'm assuming you're talking about Voidwatch with that set up? In that case, you should be hitting weaknesses enough to allow for your MP to be mostly sustained through your temps. Personally I don't remember the last time I've ever truly needed a Rdm's Refresh II, and I'm the type of Brd to constantly be casting Cure IV/Haste/-Nas/SS/Blink/etc. whenever possible lol

    In any case, all Whm's should strive to get more auto-refresh from gear than just 2mp/tick from their AF3+2 body... :/

    In the end, if you haven't lvl'd up Brd past lvl 1, you should probably stay out of the forums, or at least read them before putting in your input.
    So basically you want to be super powered anyway? Relic staff's / club do not give relic spells, neither do emperian or magian staves / clubs. Yeah that's not gonna happen, just cause SE is SE. Should the G.Horn allow you to go above every songs cap? Most definitely, just like the other special relics allow their users to go above the PDT / MDT cap.

    For the refresh buff I know about the pants, don't be snide. I was comparing ONLY the G.horn in the past vs now to indicate that it had gained potency.

    And you do relize that other then spamming chests for a refresh+1 hairpin, there's not much else a WHM can wear for refresh right? You have the hands / feet combo but their switching in / out of those so often (along with the head) that the extra MP/tick isn't fully counted.

    I was respectful and nice and you reacted like a child being snide, rude and arrogant. Don't assume that my POL / FFXIAH profile is everything I have / play.
    (1)

  9. #19
    Player Retsujo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Retsujo
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    So I really don't get why anyone would feel a BRD isn't desired, their awesome and extremely useful. Their just not the ZOMG here have all our loots type desired like back at 75.
    While not exactly on topic, I completely agree with this guy's tangent. The only reason we BRDs feel like we're left out to rot is mainly because nobody needs a BRD for a stable influx of exp/merits. Also, Abyssea is easy-mode endgame. Everything outside of Abyssea is still under the same rules they've always been. People just don't do that stuff as often as they used to.
    (2)
    Through the confinement of Valefor I found myself in the depths of Hades. It was there that I was thrown into Cerberus' Den. Only through Carbuncle's light could I find my way.

  10. #20
    Player detlef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    So basically you want to be super powered anyway? Relic staff's / club do not give relic spells, neither do emperian or magian staves / clubs. Yeah that's not gonna happen, just cause SE is SE. Should the G.Horn allow you to go above every songs cap? Most definitely, just like the other special relics allow their users to go above the PDT / MDT cap.
    The reason staff and club do not give relic spells is because they give relic weapon skills. It is SE's intent for all relic weapons to be used to melee.

    Ghorn gives a useful but small bonus to Ballad and Scherzo and otherwise provides the exact same bonuses as many other easier-to-obtain instruments. No, there might not be a precedent for relic weapons providing unique spells, but there is a precedent of gear providing unique spells (see Twilight Cloak).

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    For the refresh buff I know about the pants, don't be snide. I was comparing ONLY the G.horn in the past vs now to indicate that it had gained potency.

    And you do relize that other then spamming chests for a refresh+1 hairpin, there's not much else a WHM can wear for refresh right? You have the hands / feet combo but their switching in / out of those so often (along with the head) that the extra MP/tick isn't fully counted.
    I realize that this might end up derailing the thread, but if you have the means to obtain a WHM +2 body then you have the means to obtain Owleyes, Serpentes, and Stearc. You are right that you will not get the full benefit since you will not be idling 100% of the time.
    (0)

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