[dev1029] SCH Feedback

[Vold]

Cure V stuff

Frankly, it sounds damn easier to just give those jobs cure V than to adjust this and that so IV is more powerful.

I'll be straight up. I want cure V for rdm so it can be a viable rep for WHM in Abyssea. Now, notice I say viable. What I mean is, if I feel like playing RDM, I want to be able to do it on just the most trivial of encounters. I'm not asking for RDM main healing Shinryu here. I'm talking viable healing on most "simple" targets that don't require cure5/6 spam but yet cure3/4 spam can't fly. It's not asking for much, and sure it's stepping on WHM toes. But it is right for those jobs to have cure V at level 99. And it's the dev's jobs to keep it balanced. Remove the low enmity for RDM/SCH. Fear of death(weakness downtime) will maintain balance. Or, keep dishing out content that rapes. Whichever works.

[MDenham]

If the plan is to give SCH, RDM, and WHM tiers of a job trait that increases cure potency (note: and is separate from the existing cure potency cap), then the idea of keeping Cure V WHM-only makes sense. Sort of. (This ends up looking weird, though.)

If this happens, here's a suggested level pattern:

Healer's Boon I (+10%) - RDM58/SCH65/WHM80
Healer's Boon II (+22%) - RDM68/SCH73/WHM88
Healer's Boon III (+36%) - RDM78/SCH81/WHM96
Healer's Boon IV (+52%) - RDM88/SCH89
Healer's Boon V (+70%) - RDM98/SCH97

This puts RDM and SCH back into "good enough if you can't find a WHM", but leaves WHM comfortably ahead for most purposes, and smacks everything else /WHM or /RDM entirely out of the running, where it belongs.

[Sasaraixx]

Camate,

I think a key point is being missed entirely. RDM and SCH were asking for Cure V to allow them to main heal parties on the newer content. If the development team is of the opinion that only WHM should be able to main heal, then a lot of time and effort is being wasted on these Cure adjustments.

Yes it is very silly that just about any job who can sub WHM can heal almost as well as a SCH or RDM. You can address that issue, but it will change nothing about either job's problem with a lack of a useful/needed role in a party. The possible changes you mentioned could possibly make the situation even worse (or not help at all.) The MND example isn't particularly helpful b/c unless you gear for it, the MND differences among jobs will not have a large effect. Cure potency gear will always be preferable anyway.

The other problem is by improving the amount healed by Cures III and IV and making these other changes to cure spells, you're actually helping WHM more than SCH or RDM. The reason this is a problem is because the reality of the game at the moment is that back-up healers are rarely ever necessary. I play WHM. I just about never need any assistance with curing. If whatever we are fighting is tough enough that I need help, I would need the assistance of another WHM and not a SCH or RDM. The only support a WHM needs is that of a BRD or COR, (or another WHM) who would ultimately add more utility to the party as a whole.

You've been paying a lot of attention to SCH lately, but aside from the 2-hour spells, not much has really changed. I was hopeful about the Regen changes, but if the position of the team is that you will not provide SCH enough tools (even without Cure V) to main heal a party, then these Light Arts boosts will change very little. Making SCH a little bit better at something that is ultimately not needed is really not helpful.

The issue for me is not the amount of HP cured or the strength of the Regen spells alone. It was about carving out a solid role for the job. (The comment about not giving one job's abilities to others cannot be taken seriously given what has happened to RDM and to a lesser extent SCH.) The areas where SCH and RDM shine are just not needed or effective enough to warrant bringing them.

If the development team is unwilling to bend on this, then it seriously needs to change gears. These Regen for SCH will change nothing. They need to instead focus on providing more useful support spells that are desirable to a party and that when coupled with the job's other abilities, makes for a viable choice to fill a support slot. Healing - DD - Support - those are your choices. You're crossing out the first and the second is not really an option. There have been so many great ideas about adding bonuses to weather spells, giving traits, adding new buffing spells, FIXING THE ANIMUS SPELLS, etc. but we've seen nothing about this.

Enfeebling magic needs to become not just useful but needed if RDM is going to find it's niche in the support role. Dia III is only going to carry the job so far . . . SCH needs better party buffs and the suggested TP debuff. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

The other (terrible) option of course is to increase difficultly on most content so that a WHM cannot main heal a party without the assistance of a back-up healer. Then again, even if that were to be done, do those two jobs bring enough to the table so that it wouldn't be a better idea to bring a 2nd WHM? Right now the answer is probably no.

[Alhanelem]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.

Giving SCH cure V doesn't take anything away from WHM. They would still have a higher tier cure. For many years, you could invite many jobs to handle a healing role. While WHM would do it best, other jobs could do just fine in a pinch. Now, WHM is vastly superior and any other job just doesn't cut it at all. Increasing stat influence is silly. Just give SCH the spell. Increase the difference between cure V and cure VI, or decrease the difference between Cure V and cure IV.

[Merton9999]

The reasoning for not giving SCH and RDM Cure V sounds like theoretical rubbish to me. It's some perfect ideal about job vision without understanding the fact that people actually want to play and experience a variety of jobs that they took the time to level, gear well, and enjoy playing. The dev team is going to be perfectly content on having a pigeon hole for every job even if in practice 12 of them hardly ever get used for events? Or even 2 of them?

I think it would be wonderful if SCH and RDM had a unique role to fill. Unfortunately I've seen the attempts at this over the last two years. The idea was for SCH to ascertain enmity values and then be able to react on them to balance out hate and battle flow, which would have been interesting if it worked and were valuable. Unfortunately this was introduced into a period where fine control over enmity was absolutely unnecessary and the effects were so low they never made a noticeable impact. I can say similar things about Adloquium and Immanence.

My point is that we are past the threshold of holding out for creativity here. It hasn't worked recently and that's what the people on this message board are telling you. I don't need a message board to read grand artistic visions of the utopian Vana'diel job structure that works out OK in the artist's head but, in the end, doesn't actually ... work.

People that play RDM and SCH just want to play those jobs. I want to do something OTHER than play WHM or level MNK. It doesn't have to be any more complicated or grandiose or visionary or artiste than just letting both of those jobs have a stupid tool they need to be able to function.

As Sasaraixx pointed out the regen changes aren't going to change anything at all. Potent regen from a SCH is unnecessary if there is already a WHM present. If there is no WHM and I am expected to main heal on SCH then I'm not relying on a spell that takes so long to cast I'm afraid someone will die while I'm reapplying it after the 10th time it was dispelled.

At this point I wish they'd leave the visionary stuff for XIV that I don't plan on bothering with and just do what paying fans are asking for in XI.

[Sotek]

Am I missing something here? Why can a job/WHM cure just as well as a RDM or SCH? I don't even play RDM or SCH, but this just seems blatantly retarded to me. Either give RDM and SCH Cure V, or at least allow them access to afflatus JAs.

Please stop bullshitting. I can make a reasonable attempt at main healing on Scholar, risky but we wouldn't exactly wipe. Unless you can show me a Warrior/White Mage main healing for an entire battle, you're completely full of shit. I won't speak for Red Mage, but Scholar at least has +50% Cure potency, Aurorastorm, Stratagems (either practically free cures or +60% cures) and a decent amount of reduced cast time over whatever pathetic job you want to pretend is Curing just as well simply because they have access to the same tier of spell.

I don't know why people still want Cure V. Healing skill and Mind actually meaning something is a perfectly fine solution. The only issue is that it looks stupid for Red Mage and Scholar to have the same tier of Cure as any /White Mage job, but to pretend that having Cure IV is enough to bring a job to the same level as Red Mage or Scholar is just idiotic.
Personally I'd have removed the enmity reduction from Cure V and VI to give Cure V to Red Mage and Scholar (under Addendum: White because it needs something at this point), White Mage would gain a trait that effectively knocks down the enmity gain of all Cure spells; Curaga included. Do I think that's a better solution? Yes, I've posted it about a thousand times, but adjusting the modifiers for Cures can be equally as effective and it's damn sure simpler to implement. Increasing how much Cure III/IV heals is a perfectly suitable fix.

The only thing I can possibly take issue with is them designating White Mage as the sole main healer for this game, but that's already been covered in detail. Scholar at the very least should be able to rival White Mage; no doubt someone will pop in saying that's overpowered because Scholar can take over 20 seconds to swap Arts and cast a nuke as well as a Black Mage, though I hope I don't have to point out the glaring flaw in that.

[Rubicant82]

So what your saying is that you are going to let the WHM puppet have cure five but not the RDM or SCH when WHM has cure six and possible cure seven at 99 or meritable. That sounds to me like the Dev team needs to re-evaluate how the players play and stop trying to force players down one path.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Please stop bullshitting. I can make a reasonable attempt at main healing on Scholar, risky but we wouldn't exactly wipe. Unless you can show me a Warrior/White Mage main healing for an entire battle, you're completely full of shit. I won't speak for Red Mage, but Scholar at least has +50% Cure potency, Aurorastorm, Stratagems (either practically free cures or +60% cures) and a decent amount of reduced cast time over whatever pathetic job you want to pretend is Curing just as well simply because they have access to the same tier of spell.

I don't know why people still want Cure V. Healing skill and Mind actually meaning something is a perfectly fine solution. The only issue is that it looks stupid for Red Mage and Scholar to have the same tier of Cure as any /White Mage job, but to pretend that having Cure IV is enough to bring a job to the same level as Red Mage or Scholar is just idiotic.
Personally I'd have removed the enmity reduction from Cure V and VI to give Cure V to Red Mage and Scholar (under Addendum: White because it needs something at this point), White Mage would gain a trait that effectively knocks down the enmity gain of all Cure spells; Curaga included. Do I think that's a better solution? Yes, I've posted it about a thousand times, but adjusting the modifiers for Cures can be equally as effective and it's damn sure simpler to implement. Increasing how much Cure III/IV heals is a perfectly suitable fix.

The only thing I can possibly take issue with is them designating White Mage as the sole main healer for this game, but that's already been covered in detail. Scholar at the very least should be able to rival White Mage; no doubt someone will pop in saying that's overpowered because Scholar can take over 20 seconds to swap Arts and cast a nuke as well as a Black Mage, though I hope I don't have to point out the glaring flaw in that.

SMN/WHM as an example can heal better than a RDM, and reaches 50% Potency easier too.

[Muras]

I got a few things to say, not all SCH related though.

In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Don't forget to look into making the BLU cure spells usable on alliance members too. This has also been an issue and brought up many times as well. I mean, you changed DNC heals to work on allies and... Everyone in general... Doesn't make much sense to leave BLU cures alone, especially if you further make changes to Regen.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

Those changes sound like they'd be fun if implemented. In particular, with the Regen+Sandstorm idea, I've had a similar idea where Regen would help boost Max HP since Regen seems to lose it's usefulness when HP is usually cured and topped off with the regular cures. Would definitely be useful.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

...

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

I'd like to add a little to the first main point, which is that people want Cure V also for the lower enmity it generates. Cure IV generates a lot of enmity when you spam it, especially when you use it with Rapture. If you increase the amount cured by these spells, remember to tweak the enmity that goes along with it.

Also, funny enough I recall cure spells used to be effected more by Healing Magic and MND a very long time ago, before the NA release. I wonder if we'll just be seeing a reversal to those formulas?

[Ophannus]

Be

cause all white mage does is heal? Where scholar nukes as well as black mage, and red mage has tier 4s, and both jobs have limitless mp compared to white mage.

Don't forget WHM buffs WAY better than RDM. WHM nukes are awesome, Banish III and Holy/Holy II do nice damage, cost less MP and are more accurate than RDM nukes(outside of Abyssea too). WHM/SCH also has most of RDMs enfeebles except gravity and tier2s. Sad that the only exclusive enfeebles or buffs the master of enfeebling and enhancing gets is merit spells and refresh2(MEH), but the master of healing gets plenty of exclusive heals and buffs.