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  1. #1
    Player
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    Sep 2011
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    31

    How about an Enfeebling Magic thread?

    After lurking the official forums for so long, I've tend to see the same pattern of threads. They are usually in two categories:
    1. Give RDM Cure5 (or an equivalent)
    2. Boost RDM melee (or something to balance out RDM to make it to where RDMs should be able to melee without breaking the game)

    There is a lack of enfeebling threads in comparison lately. It seems that every week, someone borrows the dead horse and beats it until someone else borrows the dead horse to keep beating it. It is literally insane.

    Instead of trying focus to get a new cure spells or to boost RDM melee's potential, why not try to do the opposite: bring the mob down to the level of the players through enfeebling magic so that those boosts may not be needed. Why not ask for new enfeebling spells?

    I understand that the value of enfeebling spells have reduced, thanks to the mobs not really needing them. Most enfeebles last longer than the mobs themselves (most mobs and bosses can be zerged down), or the enfeebles do not work at all. The alternative would be more potent enfeebles with shorter duration for at least on mobs that can be zerged down.

    Here are three examples:

    Spell: Pain
    Element: Dark
    Magic Type: Black
    Skill: Enfeebling
    Maximum duration: 1:00 earth minute
    Cost: ~30 MP
    Method of Removal: Erase
    Description: Under the affect of Pain, the target cannot benefit from stat modifications to TP moves or weapon skills. The duration will be based on the caster's INT versus the target's magic defense.
    *The spell's concept and name are based on Final Fantasy 8's status ailment called Pain. Under that Pain, the target could not perform any attack that were not magic.*


    Spell: Sadness
    Element: Water
    Magic Type: Black
    Skill: Enfeebling
    Maximum duration: :30 earth minute
    Cost: ~40 MP
    Method of Removal: Erase
    Description: Under Sadness, the target will not be able to gain TP at a normal rate. Instead the rate of TP the target will be able to gain will be half. The duration is based on the caster's INT versus the target's magic defense.
    *This spell's concept is based on Final Fantasy 7's Sadness status ailment. In Final Fantasy 7, Sadness would cause a reduction growth of the Limit Break bar, but in return, the target's defense would increase.*

    Spell: Heat
    Element: Fire
    Magic Type: Black
    Skill: Enfeebling
    Maximum duration: 1:00 earth minute or until a TP move/WS is performed
    Cost: ~100 MP
    Method of Removal: Erase or perform a TP move/WS is performed
    Description: Under the status of Heat, if the target were to perform a TP move or WS, the target would receive damage based on as if the action was performed against itself divided by two (round up). The defenses of the user of the TP move or WS would have their base stat modifiers at defenses. Any modifiers such as magic defense or immunity to a specific element would not be calculated (since, in theory, the target is over-exerting itself to perform the TP move or WS). Any spell that does a flat damage or does not take defense into account (such as 1,000 needles), then the damage done to the performer of the TP move or WS is divided by two (rounded up). In the order of stacking, Heat would activate after the target has performed the TP move or WS. Heat will not prevent the mob from doing it.
    *Heat's concept came from the status ailment Heat from Final Fantasy 9. In Final Fantasy 9, those under Heat would be instantly KO'd if they performed any action.*


    I know the above are not perfect, but I would like to see discussion on how the spells could be made better. Who knows, maybe the spells (or something similar) could be made into the game (the same way Temper found its way into the game).

    I would like to see news enfeebling spells for RDM. Being able to knock the mob down a few pegs is what I enjoyed doing as RDM.

    I look forward to the discussion.
    (9)

  2. #2
    Player Hashmalum's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    201
    Character
    Hashmalum
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    It was mentioned a while ago that RDM was supposed to get a Gravity II at some point that had a higher -evasion effect, but we've seen nor heard any trace of it since. That's nice, but it isn't anywhere near enough. Here are some other things that we need:

    1) Dispel II and/or Dispelga. We were the first job to get a dispel at all (BRD has to wait a level, and SCH only got it at a later date and then only if they spend a charge on it). It's one of the most basic enfeebling tasks there is. Enfeebling magic is the thing we're best at. And yet now we lag pathetically behind at it. DRK can not just dispel a buff, but grab it for itself. BLU can do the same thing, do AoE dispels, has both light and dark based dispels, and can have up to four different spell timers so they're never waiting on a recast. SMN can dispel 2 buffs and AoE to boot.

    But wait! Not only have we been outclassed in dispelling by other jobs, but by the monsters as well. Try keeping Glavoid clean of buffs with just RDM; you'll be spamming Dispel for a full minute trying to keep up every time he does that move where he steals all buffs from everyone within range (and that's without even trying to recast any of the buffs he just wiped). Mobs have gotten buff moves that add multiple buffs, add undispellable buffs, steal multiple buffs, etc. The bottom line is we need more and better dispel spells just to keep pace.

    2) Something, anything, to impede a mob's special moves. When you are fighting one of the new mob types whose "normal" attacks are really special moves, the staple debuffs Slow and Paralyze do absolutely nothing against it. Nor can you do anything to do stop mob ranged attack moves because those too are considered special (meanwhile, player ranged attacks get stopped by Paralyze just fine...)

    3) Virus. The spell already exists in-game and is used by two NMs. Just let us have it already.
    (7)

  3. #3
    Player Seriha's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    982
    Character
    Kalsena
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I still want to see a debuff that effectively levels down the target, and with that all stats and possibly removing a trait or spell from their arsenal if the level is thusly moved below. And since having multiple RDMs in an alliance for debuffing purposes is often pointless, I'd like this spell to take a page from DNC steps and have levels where multiple casts add to the effect, most likely 1 level per successful land with a cap of 5. Recast could probably be around 45s.

    Actually, I'd like the potency building mechanic added to all of our debuffs, job exclusive sort of like how people /SCH can't get Regen boosts with Light Arts. Saboteur could also be tweaked to land whatever at its max level along with the current boosts.

    But really, pick a stat, and you can probably make a debuff for it if there isn't one already. Some would be more useful than others, sure, but having options for those niche scenarios would be nice.
    (5)

  4. #4
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    Sep 2011
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    Dispel II and/or Dispelga
    I would like an improved Dispel or a modification to improve Dispel. With some of the mobs in voidwatch I have encounter, some of the buffs they perform can not be Dispelled (exampled, the Cursed Spikes on the Behemoth in VD).

    Virus
    I agree, it would be nice to get that spell in our books also.

    I still want to see a debuff that effectively levels down the target, and with that all stats and possibly removing a trait or spell from their arsenal if the level is thusly moved below.
    I do not see a difficult implementation of it, at least math wise. It would be interesting to see if something like this were to be implemented. A spell used by monsters (and I believe it was Blue Magic) called "Discord" would cut the target's current level in half. Discord appeared in Final Fantasy 6. So, historically it can be done.
    (2)

  5. #5
    Player Motenten's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    321
    Thoughts on enfeebles:

    A change that I know will never happen due to the work involved (and thus I also haven't tried to work out all balance implications), but would probably make balancing a number of things in the game easier:

    Remove the spell Silence. Replace with Addle (version 1) at around level 15-20 (comparable to when Silence is normally learned), add Addle II at around 60-75 (rdm only), and allow stacking with brd's new song.

    Addle would have a flat m.acc reduction, extremely powerful when first learned due to the relative values involved (and because it would have to be comparable to the usability of Silence at low levels), but declining to a minor effect at higher levels. Addle II steps things up for rdm. Pining Nocturn would be closer to Addle's power; combining Addle with Nocturne would give an effect comparable to Addle II, and combining with Addle II would give a decent boost to the overall effect.

    Not sure if/how it should affect the recast time on a Chainspelling mob.

    Silence would be a powerful high-level enfeeble, since it's essentially a maxed-out version of Addle. (Part of the problem in adding Addle now; we got the strong version as a low level spell, and are getting the weak version as a high level spell because the low level spell was too unbalancing, and they had to make too many mobs immune to it).



    Other enfeeble ideas:

    Anti-Temper: A debuff to reduce multi-attack proc rates, whether double or triple attack. Obviously can't go below 0.

    Plague: Typical desired enfeeble. Reduce TP gain by ~5/tick. Against a player, that can strangle their TP gain rate; against a mob with multiple players beating on it, it's mostly only a minor speedbump. Against a Subtle Blow-heavy single player (eg: Footwork mnk), conceivably all TP gain could be negated. Would need work on finding an appropriate balance.

    Confusion: Change currently active target randomly to the second or third person on the hate list; if 6 or fewer people to choose from, may still target the #1 on hate list. Obviously has no effect if there's only one person on the hate list. Difficult to use in low-man situations, but more useful in larger groups.

    'Hesitation': Reduce the chance the mob will choose to use a TP move, including for the "always at 100 TP" period under 25% HP.

    Dispel II/Dispelga: aggree with Hashmalum on these.


    On the idea of "high level" enfeebles, perhaps something could be done similar to blu's Unbridled Learning (which is itself similar to sch's Addendums) -- a 5-10 minute recast JA that allows access to certain powerful enfeebles such as Silence (which could actually land on NMs, but may have a relatively short duration such as 30 seconds), Amnesia or Terror. 5 minute recast if it allows you to use one spell of choice, 10 minute recast if it gives you a window to cast several spells.

    The above suggested "Heat" would probably also fit in the high-level enfeeble block.


    And yes, some sort of 'Enfeebling Mastery' trait which increases potency of enfeebles at progressively higher rates. Can get tiers at level 25, 50, 75 and 99. Have it something like (arbitrary numbers): Skill/40 at tier 1, Skill/28 at tier 2, Skill/20 at tier 3, Skill/14 at tier 4, as bonus effect to the spell's potency.
    (5)

  6. #6
    Player Hashmalum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    201
    Character
    Hashmalum
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea View Post
    I would like an improved Dispel or a modification to improve Dispel. With some of the mobs in voidwatch I have encounter, some of the buffs they perform can not be Dispelled (exampled, the Cursed Spikes on the Behemoth in VD).
    The problem with Curse Spikes is that isn't really a spike status--in fact, it isn't a status at all. It's actually more along the lines of a trait, like the "Player Killer" trait some monster TP moves give. Changing Dispel to be able to remove it would be a major change. I don't think we'll ever see Dispel changed to be able to remove traits; best we can hope for with regard to Curse Spikes is to get them to make it an actual status, which would make it potentially dispellable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea View Post
    I do not see a difficult implementation of it, at least math wise. It would be interesting to see if something like this were to be implemented. A spell used by monsters (and I believe it was Blue Magic) called "Discord" would cut the target's current level in half. Discord appeared in Final Fantasy 6. So, historically it can be done.
    It was in FF5 too as Black Shock. Once again though it was a blue magic. Also the time magic Old gradually lowered levels. Although given that SCH is the poor man's Time Mage here, again precedent is not encouraging as to us getting it.
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,350
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Not to sound like a wet blanket, but all these idea's are potentially game breaking if applied to NM's. And SE doesn't particularly like us breaking NM's, so don't expect any of them to work on NMs. Like I've said in previous threads, make simple things, the more simple it is, the less variables and factors involved, then less room SE has to screw it up.

    Anything that stops TP moves is out the windows, its how SE keeps us in check. Anything that hinders monsters casting is also out the window for the same reason. Anything level based wont work, player vs monster level determines too many things to allow a player to change it.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player Ketaru's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    215
    Character
    Ketaru
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Anything that stops TP moves is out the windows, its how SE keeps us in check. Anything that hinders monsters casting is also out the window for the same reason. Anything level based wont work, player vs monster level determines too many things to allow a player to change it.
    That's reasonable enough, but perhaps they could take a page from what they did with Addle then. Why not a spell that increases the charge up time of mob abilities and also directly reduces the damage dealt by said abilities by a flat 10%? Increased charge time could give more time to Stun, and not gimp the mobs that are immune to Stun. Would work very much in the same way Addle does, at the very least giving groups a little more time to shore up defenses when they see an ability coming.
    (4)
    Last edited by Ketaru; 10-11-2011 at 01:50 PM.
    "NeED★RdM? PLeaSe sENd★teLL!"

  9. #9
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    1,401
    Hinder: Increases the amount of TP required to use a special move.

    When used on a mob, the amount of TP required for them to use a special move is increased by 30-75% which means less frequent special moves. Below 25% HP this means the mob will need a minimum of up to 175% TP to execute a TP attack instead of the usual 100%.


    Dispel should get a bonus with Enfeebling Skill so that every 100ish Enfeebling Skill, Dispel will remove another debuff (RDM main only). We don't need to waste another spell slot on a tier 2, just make it scale like how Bio and Elemental Debuffs and Enhancing spells do with skill.

    Poison III would be welcomed because 10-11/tick isn't much now that most NMs have 150k+HP now, besides BLU's Disseverment poison is already 16/tick.
    (3)
    Last edited by Ophannus; 10-11-2011 at 05:05 PM.

  10. #10
    Player Kristal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,552
    Character
    Kristal
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Changes to group 2 merit spells would be nice too. Likely actually being able to cast full duration/effect Phalanx II, Bio III and Dia III... I'm actually missing Dia III and Bio III because I took Phalanx II to 5, and I rather have 4/6 spells then 1.4/6 spells...
    (0)
    "Puppetmaster was our last best hope for peace. It failed.
    Now it's our last best hope.. for victory!"

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