Some ideas for changes for Summoner

[Soranika]

For some one who doesn't want to use Garuda constantly, Titan works well as well against skeleton family. Geocrush is as good as an alternative to using Mountain Buster on Titan if summoners with low summoning magic skill have to worry about blind. Considering there's little to no difference to Wind Blade, Titan comes off with better DoT over Garuda. In lieu of Garuda's Hastega and Whispering Wind, Earthen Ward spam does just as much to to ensure survival of other players in WoE Flux #11.

But really it's as easy as saying it's not what avatar you use, it's how you use them. If I'm in a WoE conflux with no WHM and a bunch of SMN and melee already there, I'm not going in to deal damage, I'm going in to support with Carbuncle, Titan, or Fenrir. But if I'm going to fight a skel type monster head on, I'm going Titan or Ifrit.

I've used Chaotic Strike, I've used Mountain Buster, I've used Flaming Crush, and I've used Wind Blade in WoE. Which generally performs consistently and the best? Wind Blade level 5. I never used Heavenly Strike on them because skeletons are strong to ice

Oh before I post, I wanted to single this out because it bothers me to no end that you compared a magical, merit blood pact to physical, normal blood pacts that do not benefit from TP bonus. Nevermind the fact that not every summoner has 5/5 merits on Wind Blade. (Personally I only have 2/5 on it). When you take out elemental weaknesses and resistance, all merit blood pacts deal pretty much the same damage and usually always better over most common physical blood pacts with the exception of Predator Claws to mobs that are more resistant to magic than physical damage.

[Annalise]

For some one who doesn't want to use Garuda constantly, Titan works well as well against skeleton family. Geocrush is as good as an alternative to using Mountain Buster on Titan if summoners with low summoning magic skill have to worry about blind. Considering there's little to no difference to Wind Blade, Titan comes off with better DoT over Garuda. In lieu of Garuda's Hastega and Whispering Wind, Earthen Ward spam does just as much to to ensure survival of other players in WoE Flux #11.

But really it's as easy as saying it's not what avatar you use, it's how you use them. If I'm in a WoE conflux with no WHM and a bunch of SMN and melee already there, I'm not going in to deal damage, I'm going in to support with Carbuncle, Titan, or Fenrir. But if I'm going to fight a skel type monster head on, I'm going Titan or Ifrit.


Oh before I post, I wanted to single this out because it bothers me to no end that you compared a magical, merit blood pact to physical, normal blood pacts that do not benefit from TP bonus. Nevermind the fact that not every summoner has 5/5 merits on Wind Blade. (Personally I only have 2/5 on it). When you take out elemental weaknesses and resistance, all merit blood pacts deal pretty much the same damage and usually always better over most common physical blood pacts with the exception of Predator Claws to mobs that are more resistant to magic than physical damage.

Did you miss this part of my post? Or most of my post?

"I didn't have any resistance issues with Wind blade, and typically it outperforms physical pacts on those skeletons. Even should you get a triple critical Chaotic strike, a level 5 magical pact (from anything aside from Shiva) is over time going to outperform it on those mobs. Just as it was at 75 on stronger mobs (e.g. dolls and golems in sky) merit bloodpacts (outside abyssea) outperform physical bloodpacts over time. This is why I killed dolls in sky faster with wind blade than other people did using predator claws (and no, dolls do not get a blunt bonus, that's magic pots). "

Clearly I state the difference that it is magical vs. physical. I also state in my post that blind will lower the accuracy of the physical. I also state that any level 5 merit pact (aside from heavenly) will do well on them. Yes, they are the same damage. Not "pretty much the same damage" but exactly the same base damage. Avatar stats do not vary between celestials. Shiva does not have higher intelligence. Titan does not have higher vitality.

I also said that merit pacts usually outperform physical pacts on anything with a bit of defense outside abyssea. And the physical pacts I spoke of were the ones that get a bonus on skeletons.

I didn't say that everyone should have 5/5 wind blade.

I am saying the blanket statement of "you're using garuda, therefore you are an idiot" is wrong.

[Soranika]

Did you miss this part of my post?

"I didn't have any resistance issues with Wind blade, and typically it outperforms physical pacts on those skeletons. Even should you get a triple critical Chaotic strike, a level 5 magical pact (from anything aside from Shiva) is over time going to outperform it on those mobs. Just as it was at 75 on stronger mobs (e.g. dolls and golems in sky) merit bloodpacts (outside abyssea) outperform physical bloodpacts over time. This is why I killed dolls in sky faster with wind blade than other people did using predator claws (and no, dolls do not get a blunt bonus, that's magic pots). "

It's still an unfair comparison. While you're giving others the benifit of the doubt, 9 times out of 10 when you go do woe with a bunch of other random SMN, they are spamming Predator Claws like it's going out of style. What I was trying to say is that it's an unfair comparison though. Of course merited blood pacts will deal out more over physical. But at 5/5, your windblade always have TP bonus even with 0. But take that out of the equation, other avatars are suited just the same an more than one regard. But what I take from your argument is that Garuda is all SMN need since she covers every base, but ignore significant advantages over another avatars that are well suited as well. Completely irrelevant to the conflux 11 skeletons, would you use Garuda on mage skeletons knowing they use ice magic? Have you compared normal auto-attack damage between Garuda and Titan or Ifrit on skeletons?

Also accuracy for physical blood pacts aren't THAT greatly effected by blind if summoning magic skill is high. When you have more than handful of SMN wailing on an single enemy, does that even matter? A very real issue with SMN is MP management because they aren't geared to handle merit blood pact spam every single moment they get.

Clearly I state the difference that it is magical vs. physical. I also state in my post that blind will lower the accuracy of the physical. I also state that any level 5 merit pact (aside from heavenly) will do well on them. Yes, they are the same damage. Not "pretty much the same damage" but exactly the same base damage. Avatar stats do not vary between celestials. Shiva does not have higher intelligence. Titan does not have higher vitality.

I avoided commenting specifically on that in your last post because it is indeed silly to think avatars have a stat difference over the others. You didn't read my post properly if you assumed that I believe that just cause I pointed out that there are people out there that STILL carry that belief because they know little about SMN.

I'm not into the math of it all, but you also misread "pretty much same damage" entirely wrong. Not everyone is using merited blood pacts with 2+ merits on that ability, nor do they allow time to build up TP, hence "pretty much" as TP is relative to the damage.

I am saying the blanket statement of "you're using garuda in Flux 11, therefore you are an idiot" is wrong.

Fixed.
On a less trollish note, Garuda isn't the only avatar SMN have. By you defending use of Garuda in an area where use of another avatar should be encouraged, I personally see that as a 'justification' on your part that Garuda covers every need SMN have and only in extreme situations should another avatar be used if she fails in that area. Aside from that, the only other thing I get out of this is saying "Garuda can do it too, so don't hate." And I'll say just because she can "do it too" doesn't mean there other avatars are not capable because you chose to use Wind Blade in comparison to their physical blood pacts instead of their merited ones (Thunderstorm, Geocrush, Meteor Strike). Not to mention these avatars also grant other Blood pact: ward benefits that makes it more useful to see more diversity in avatars than everyone wasting MP overcasting the same one specifically in areas where these benefits are not limited to a single party but everyone.

So summary... I still don't see it smart for SMN to be all using Garuda in Conflux 11 specifically. We have other avatars; use them. There's no excuse not to.

[Mirage]

Wouldn't it make sense if the spirits used offensive and supportive magic whenever we used rage or ward pet commands? Even if we couldn't pick the spells freely, it could make them cast like one of the two most powerful nukes the spirit had access to at any given level.

[Annalise]

It's still an unfair comparison. While you're giving others the benifit of the doubt, 9 times out of 10 when you go do woe with a bunch of other random SMN, they are spamming Predator Claws like it's going out of style. What I was trying to say is that it's an unfair comparison though. Of course merited blood pacts will deal out more over physical. But at 5/5, your windblade always have TP bonus even with 0. But take that out of the equation, other avatars are suited just the same an more than one regard. But what I take from your argument is that Garuda is all SMN need since she covers every base, but ignore significant advantages over another avatars that are well suited as well. Completely irrelevant to the conflux 11 skeletons, would you use Garuda on mage skeletons knowing they use ice magic? Have you compared normal auto-attack damage between Garuda and Titan or Ifrit on skeletons?

How is it an unfair comparison? We're talking about using an effective avatar on skeletons in WoE 11. Garuda is an effective avatar if used properly, and not awful. It's not a terrible choice. Yes, as I said before, Predator Claws there is a terrible idea. If you do not have wind blade, by all means use something else. If you have something besides heavenly strike merited higher than wind blade, use that.

I also never said Garuda should be used on everything. If you're going for damage, you should use whichever avatar will do the most. Garuda just tends to cover more situations than most, but there are definitely situations that should use other avatars. Most of my examples are @ 75 when I used summoner a hell of a lot more than I do today, which is more inside abyssea than out. Examples were Leviathan on imps @ 75 (though garuda killed faster, leviathan was nearly resistant to amnesia). Heavenly strike on anything higher defense that doesn't resist ice (i.e. most mobs) but resists whatever else you have merited. Ramuh on Steam Cleaner @ 75.

On skeletons, magic pots, and corses who have squishier defense, you should definitely use something like Ramuh or Titan over Garuda.

Do you really think Titan and Ifrit will do more auto-attacking on skeletons? How much do you really know about summoner?

All avatars use Hand-to-Hand (and not blunt, it's slightly different) damage for their auto-attack. All celestial avatars are the same base damage and delay. Ifrit and Ramuh can have enspells for added damage, Garuda gets haste. Garuda also gets tp faster for Wind Blade. Ifrit can also boost his attack by a small amount that will hardly make a difference.

Fenrir actually has the highest damage and lowest delay for auto-attack.

Ifrit, Ramuh, Fenrir, and Garuda are all above Titan in regard to DPS.

And merit blood pacts only outperform physical on anything with decent defense. Since Physical bloodpacts cap at 4.0 PDIF, their damage can climb up pretty high on weaker defense mobs.

Garuda gets the job done in WoE 11 just fine. If you don't have wind blade, obviously use something else. If you have it but have a non-heavenly strike avatar with a higher merit level, use that instead. Saying that "if you didn't have level 5 wind blade she wouldn't be good there" is not an effective argument.

Again, just saying that use of Garuda in WoE 11 is not necessarily stupid.

Also accuracy for physical blood pacts aren't THAT greatly effected by blind if summoning magic skill is high. When you have more than handful of SMN wailing on an single enemy, does that even matter? A very real issue with SMN is MP management because they aren't geared to handle merit blood pact spam every single moment they get.

So are you trying to say more summoners take away the accuracy penalty from blind, or that missing your bloodpact doesn't matter because there are more summoners to make up for it?

I have 6/tick refresh with an avatar out solo, and /RDM convert. Combined with nearly maxed (haven't maxed since 90->95 yet) skill with nearly the best gear for siphon, it's rare that I run out of MP even when spamming Wind Blade/Hastega/Whispering Wind. If you're having terrible MP problems, get better gear.

I avoided commenting specifically on that in your last post because it is indeed silly to think avatars have a stat difference over the others. You didn't read my post properly if you assumed that I believe that just cause I pointed out that there are people out there that STILL carry that belief because they know little about SMN.

I'm not into the math of it all, but you also misread "pretty much same damage" entirely wrong. Not everyone is using merited blood pacts with 2+ merits on that ability, nor do they allow time to build up TP, hence "pretty much" as TP is relative to the damage.

I mentioned that because you mentions Shiva having higher intelligence in another post. And again, it's not 'pretty much the same damage'. It's the same. Yes, TP varies. But Wind Blade at 147 tp will do the same as Heavenly Strike at 147 tp, etc.

And if they don't have 2+ merits on an ability, that's because they didn't finish meriting. You're given ten, and there are only six. General consensus is:
Max one, unlock five
Max two
3 Merits in two, 1 merit 4 in others.

If you use all ten, there is no way you cannot end up with 2+ in four of them, or 3+ in some, etc.

Fixed.
On a less trollish note, Garuda isn't the only avatar SMN have. By you defending use of Garuda in an area where use of another avatar should be encouraged, I personally see that as a 'justification' on your part that Garuda covers every need SMN have and only in extreme situations should another avatar be used if she fails in that area. Aside from that, the only other thing I get out of this is saying "Garuda can do it too, so don't hate." And I'll say just because she can "do it too" doesn't mean there other avatars are not capable because you chose to use Wind Blade in comparison to their physical blood pacts instead of their merited ones (Thunderstorm, Geocrush, Meteor Strike). Not to mention these avatars also grant other Blood pact: ward benefits that makes it more useful to see more diversity in avatars than everyone wasting MP overcasting the same one specifically in areas where these benefits are not limited to a single party but everyone.

So summary... I still don't see it smart for SMN to be all using Garuda in Conflux 11 specifically. We have other avatars; use them. There's no excuse not to.

I figured you knew I meant in WoE 11 since that's what we were talking about.

I don't think people should be encouraged to use something else if what they're using is working, either. If someone had level 5 wind blade, and level 5 grand fall, would I encourage them to put away leviathan and use garuda? No. Grand fall is working just fine on those skeletons. If someone is using predator claws and lacks Wind blade, then yes, they should be using something else (e.g Ramuh) and I would encourage them to do so.

I never said other avatars couldn't do it, either. In fact I said any but Shiva are well suited there (as rush sucks, and Heavenly strike will be resisted) if you use them properly. You are the one who said that less avatars (e.g. not garuda) aren't suited there. Any non-shiva avatar with a merit pact level 5 will do just fine. If you don't have it, then that's your choice to do less damage, or laziness because someone (not you, I know you didn't burn smn) burned summoner in abyssea and didn't merit. They can use physical pacts there if they want, even with their damage bonus, and they will underperform compared to their own merit pacts.

Thunderstorm level 5 will outperform Chaotic Strike there. That's a comparison of two blood pacts with the same avatar if that suits you better.

Yeah, multiple bloodpact wards are nice. After your Avatar uses rage, you can always call a new avatar and use a ward. I've done so plenty of times with carbuncle there. Carbuncle has some of the best wards you can use there. But should someone be using carbuncle exclusively? Not if they want to contribute more damage. Carbuncle is by far the weakest.

The way summoner has been for many many years now has been this, and most of the summoner community will agree:

Garuda is typically the strongest. Predator claws being a three hit bloodpact typically puts out good numbers.

Garuda has the potential for the lowest perpetuation cost among the celestial avatars. That was all the Karura Hachigane, of course, which is still a nice piece should you not have something better.

This is similar to BST using nursery nazuna on everything. BLM using ice on everything, and when all else fails, use thunder (then fall back to things like wind if both of those fail). Melees using the same WS over and over (though abyssea changed that a bit to critical weaponskills, e.g. no one used evisceration over dancing edge or shark bite before). Puppetmaster always using sharpshot over valoredge.

Would it be nice if the avatars were evened out a bit more? Yes. Hopefully with some new bloodpacts the job won't be so Garuda focused. The job is pushed most toward Garuda. I take it you just don't like that the job is so Garuda focused, and I can't blame you.