Counterstance…

[Kayin]

My thoughts on this ability.

MNK Relic Armor:

This set primarily is used for a Counterstance setup. Counterstance, leaves MNK with only the Defense given by their Vitality stat, making the Physical Damage taken significantly larger. However the trade off is a significant bonus to MNKs Counter Activation rate.

-This set gives a rather significant Subtle Blow Bonus (+15), being that Physical Weapon Skills will do much more damage from the Defensive hit of Counterstance, you will give the enemy less TP which in turn reduces the Weapon Skill frequency.

-This set gives a large Hit Point Bonus (HP+23%, this is calculated after HP+!), this again is to give you the needed Hit Points to take the extra damage from the increased Physical Damage.

-The boots are the largest part of the Relic Set; they give a Bonus to the Counter Rate! (10% Bonus), while also including +12 Guard Skill! (Guard Skill when activated greatly reduces Physical Damage from a Melee Attack; it also, when triggered, can Null a Physical Damage Weapon Skills Damage!)

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I’ve soloed with this Set, and it’s A LOT of fun!; however; this Set I feel becomes undermined, when you’re not playing Solo, when you’re with your friends, especially doing a Linkshell event, like Dynamis.

When you have a huge pack of Melee feeding TP to the enemy, the Subtle Blow has no effect. The enemy will continuously use Weapon Skills at an impressive rate.

I have a capped Guard Skill, which for Solo does make a notable difference, soloing; however, when you’re in a situation where you need extra players, because the enemy is that powerful – The capped Guard Skill with Merits and the +12 from the set (+20 Guard Skill) is still much to low of an activation rate. Again this undermines the set, the Weapon Skills aren’t slowing down for nothing and chances are they will be hitting you for large amounts of damage.


I know this was a really long post, but I felt I had to make all these points in order to discuss this list of things MNK needs in this department lol.



My Conclusion!

1. MNK needs some other method to deal with Physical Weapon Skills, that isn’t the universal you must sub /NIN, I mean a MNK ability to deal with Physical Weapon Skills.

2. Counterstance should not be able to be dispelled, that undermines the entire set, without Counterstance on this set really serves no purpose. Either that or a reduced cool-down timer, like SAM gets for Seigan and Hasso. So there’s a chance it can be re-applied.

3. SE really need to add more MNK Counter+ Weapons. The “Cross-Counters” and “Retaliators” are the only ones with Counter Attack in the entire game, aside of the MNK Relic Weapon, Spharai.

Cross-Counters (LVL 50):
DMG:+19
Delay: 96
Accuracy +3
Counter +5
Evasion -10

VS

Spharai (LVL 90)
DMG+40
Delay: 86
Attack: +35
Counter +12
Attacks will occasionally do 3 times normal damage.

This gap is weapons is ridiculous, add more Trials/Weapons with higher DMG with Counter+ for MNKs!

[Drhatchet]

You shouldn't use the full set of relic full time ever. The only piece even worth wearing more than just <wait 1> lengths of time is the hands and even they are greatly outclassed now.

If your really concerned with a "counterstance set," you should pour on acc to reach cap first and foremost.

Your standard tp gear should also double for your best counter gear, you will do more damage by far.

Level 50 weapons tend to suck when compared to level 90 weapons, and we will continue to ignore +counter on weapons when the weapon isn't as good as the next weapon over.

[Cream_Soda]

Mnk relic was and never will be better than a macro piece.

macro feet for coutnerstance.

macro hands for chakra.

macro body for resting.

Legs and head: used to store set before porter moogle.

[Swords]

I would not doubt there is a cap for counter, and really it is'nt hard to get 75% counter with just merits/traits/counterstance/melee gaiters. Go into Abyssea and you can get another 20-50% (assumed estimates) counter from Atma, and Saraphi/Cross-counters and anything else is really just icing on the cake.

As Drhatchet said, accuracy also plays a big part in the success of countering. Since accuracy has a hidden cap (90% for 1h and 95% for 2h I believe) it's realistic to think you cannot have 100% counter no matter how much you stack on.

[Martinius]

all acc caps at 95%, no difference between 1h and 2h in that regard. 2h just tends to have a little easier time capping acc because of how their weapons calcuate acc in regards to dex.

acc shouldn't be a problem for most jobs inside of abyssea if you're using razed ruins and have the cruor buff abyssites. occasionally you'll need pizza for mobs (rani and raja come to mind). only mob in abyssea i've ever had to eat sushi on was indrik.

if you meet the acc check, most everything i've seen and parsed suggests 40% w/ counterstance up, 45% w/ full counter merits, and an additional 10% when using af2 feet. bump that a chunk with gnarled horn. don't have roaring laughter yet, but that's how you get to silly counter rates.

[Kayin]

For Counterstance, the point I was trying to make is that the Relic Set gives:

Subtle Blow - You’ll get Weapon Skilled less often.
Hit Points - More likely to survive large damaging hits.
Counter Rate% - Less likely to get hit by melee while dealing additional damage.
Guard Skill - Chance to reduce Physical Attacks and Null Weapon Skill Damage.

This Set, stat wise, is set to function around Counterstance’s weak spots. When 75 was the level cap, I soloed Sharks in Sea very comfortably with this set as MNK/DNC - I never had to rest - Though storing TP up when Sharks would use Plasma Charge was a must; since hitting them would usually Stun me and I’d then be unable to Counter, which would let them land a free hit or two. Guard Skill usually would help pick up the slack when that’d happen.

I brought this Set into discussion, saying that, to the best of my knowledge it’s the best Set to wear to make, Counterstance specifically, a lot better.

I realize I can do much more Damage wearing gear with Haste %, Crit %, DEX, STR, and Attack. – Which on the newer gear has MUCH better values than this Set lol. That also goes for comparing a level 50 weapon to a level 90 weapon.

My thoughts on what’s needed are:

- MNK needs an ability or method to deal with over-powered Weapon Skill Damage when using Counterstance, like SAM with Seigan + Third eye or NIN with Utsusemi. – This is only the case with Linkshell or Party events. Solo the Subtle Blow is excellent, but DDs feed way to much TP and you’ll get Weapon Skilled to death depending on what the mob is that you’re fighting. The way it works right now, other players make Counterstance not work well in PTs because of the amount of TP being fed, you’ll get Weapon Skilled way to much and even a capped Guard Skill isn’t going to stand up to it, I know cause I have it lol.

- MNK only has two weapon choices to enhance Counterstance was the main point I was trying to make. I’d gladly do Trials/NM farm or whatever to earn a weapon more balance between the two of them. Lets say Cross-Counters has DMG:+19, Counter +5 & Spharai: DMG:+40, Counter +12 – Perhaps in the middle have a new Weapon DMG:30 Counter +8 (and some other stats). Just something to close the gap is all I’m saying lol.

[Cream_Soda]

This Set, stat wise, is set to function around Counterstance’s weak spots.

Just because it's a defensive set doesn't mean it was designed for counterstance.

Optical hat. 10 evasion. Evade more attacks and take less damage, one of countestances weakpoints.

Ohat certainly wasn't designed for counterstance, lol.

When 75 was the level cap, I soloed Sharks in Sea very comfortably with this set as MNK/DNC - I never had to rest - Though storing TP up when Sharks would use Plasma Charge was a must; since hitting them would usually Stun me and I’d then be unable to Counter, which would let them land a free hit or two. Guard Skill usually would help pick up the slack when that’d happen.

Sharks were never heard and PDT is always the best to use when you're in an oshi moment.

Ohat/Usu > af2 crown
Usu gote > Seiryu Kote > af2 gloves
Usukane > Scorpion Harness (+1) > Melee Cyclas
I personally wouldn't come out of byakko's at 75, but for defensive purposes, Denali > af2 legs
Temple Gaiters+1 > Melee gaiters.

None of relic was good for soloing. Not a single piece of it. There was always something better to go in each slot for every circumstance.

[Kayin]

I'd have to disagree, the boots as part of this Set state the following, "Enhances "Counterstance" effect"; this leads me to believe it IS designed for Counterstance.

As I stated in my above post, I realize there are pieces of gear with much better stats, and weapons as well. I was only focusing on Counterstance's weak spots and pointing out that, while Counterstancing, this Set focuses on its weak spots – much better than a lot of the gear I’ve seen in the game.

If your going to load up on Evasion in order to not get hit, that’s all fine and good, but if your Evading you’re not Counter Attacking, if your /NIN to avoid Weapon Skills, again you’re not able to Counter Attack, ever, until the shadows are used up.

The post is about Counterstance I listed gear that helps, specifically that ability. You’re list of gear helps Evasion Skill, that has nothing to do with Counterstance what so ever, it in fact makes the ability not trigger as often. I don’t understand how you can say that gear is better for Counterstance when it clearly isn’t.

I use:

Ultion Mantle: "Counter" +2 Increases "Counter" attack
Moonshade Earring: "Counter" +3 Accuracy +4 (Augmented Choices)
Retaliators: "Counter" +5
Melee Gaitors: "Counter +10 while in Counterstance"

I have +5 Counter Attack from Merits as well as full Hand-to-Hand merits (Helping with Hit% rate).

With all these listed, my record so far is 22x Counter attacks in a row, however; it's an average to say I usually counter 75%-80% of attacks 4/5 area.

This again brings me to the two points I’ve tried to make in my above posts:

- A higher DMG+ weapon would be better so Counter Attacks would do more damage, that weapon needs Counter Attack + of some kind on it though, otherwise the weapon wouldn’t be an upgrade for Counterstance, it’d simply be a weapon with a higher DMG on it, it'd be nice having more than only two choices.

-Other melee feed way too much TP, which makes a Counterstanced MNK unable to handle the Physical Weapon Skill Damage, because, with a PT, they happen far to often and /NIN is a bad option for Counterstancing because it nullifies the ability to trigger until shadows are gone. So MNK needs a new ability to help deal with Physical Weapon Skills.

I'm trying to drive home the point this ability needs to be revamped, so it's useful and not just a slot taken up on the ability list.

[Cream_Soda]

I'd have to disagree, the boots as part of this Set state the following, "Enhances "Counterstance" effect"; this leads me to believe it IS designed for Counterstance.

You're talking about 1 piece, which doesn't even need to b kept on. It can be macrod in and you're talking about the entire set, not just that one piece of gear.

The gloves also enhance chakra.

Is the entire set built on Chrakra's weaknesses?

You’re list of gear helps Evasion Skill, that has nothing to do with Counterstance what so ever,

I was making an example to show you had no clue what you're talking about.

Guard has nothing to do with Counterstance, either. If you are guarding, it's because you're not countering. Same deal w/ evasion.

With all these listed, my record so far is 22x Counter attacks in a row, however; it's an average to say I usually counter 75%-80% of attacks 4/5 area.

you do know the hard cap, excluding perfect counter is 80% counter rate, no?

-Other melee feed way too much TP, which makes a Counterstanced MNK unable to handle the Physical Weapon Skill Damage, because, with a PT, they happen far to often and /NIN is a bad option for Counterstancing because it nullifies the ability to trigger until shadows are gone. So MNK needs a new ability to help deal with Physical Weapon Skills.

LOL, what are you talking about? I can eat spike flails w/ counterstance up and still have no trouble w/ dying. Go quest your abyssites of merit. Nothing physical attack should be able to one shot you in this game right now.

I'm trying to drive home the point this ability needs to be revamped, so it's useful and not just a slot taken up on the ability list.

Am I reading this wrong, or did you just say counterstance wasn't useful.

Counterstance was beyond useful before and during abyssea.


Before abyssea? Mnk/nin. What happens when utsusemi Ni is down and you're waiting on Ichi? Counterstance. When you counter while casting, your spell is not interrupted. Countering was the single thing that set monk tanking apart from not only any other DD/nin, but nin as well.

Abyssea era? Mnk/war. Mnk/war can tank 9.5/10 mobs in abyssea. Yes mnk/war. Why? a combination of hitting the counter rate hard cap and whms being bottomless pits of mp.

I don't see how you're saying counterstance isn't useful. The only time I don't have the ability up is because it's been dispelled.


Edit: Stop using Retaliators.

You have to be getting swung at to counter. You wouldn't even hold hate off my corsair in a pair of those silly things.