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  1. #1
    Player AyinDygra's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    286
    Character
    Varos
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99

    Automaton AI Customization

    I put forth this idea (buried in my megapost), that would allow Puppetmasters a great deal more control over their automaton's decisions.

    The concept is Automaton AI cards.
    Soul Plates can be turned into Artificial Intelligence program cards for Automatons. These are equipped like attachments in 2 new slots (not attachment slots) one in the head, one in the body, and they change the AI of the Automaton, giving players control over the abilities used by the automaton and access to new abilities and traits.

    These AI Cards are separated into two groups: Weapon and Ether Control Cards. While they only drop from Archaic Machinery (Gears, Chariots, Ramparts), many Soul Plate cards can be used in the creation of AI cards to enable other special properties. Ether Control Cards can only be created from soul plates taken of enemies with mage jobs. (AI cards are added to the Automaton's attachment list, or something exactly like it, only for cards.)

    I'll copy-paste/hide the post here for further discussion in this thread, rather than the megapost.

    Details about Automaton AI Control Cards
    Based on Empress Jubleel's research into programming Automatons so they could act on their own without direct control of every action by their Puppeteer, the Simulacrum scientists have created new programming AI cards to modify the actions of Automatons using the traits and tendencies of creatures whose data has been recorded on soul plates.

    I'd only expect an On/Off sort of system, or choosing triggers from the elemental list, but if a rudimentary "Gambit" system could be put in place for more precise control, it would be even better, though not a realistic expectation. For those who think Pup already has enough control of their automaton through maneuvers, I think it's far too limiting, and new attachments keep eating active maneuvers, ruining control setups, both for weaponskills and magic priorities.)

    AI cards can be switched out on the fly, and flipping abilities and spells on and off can be done without deactivating the automaton, unlike attachments. (Switching any option on or off will reset all hidden ability timers for abilities like Shock Absorber, ranged attack and spellcasting cooldown as if they had just been used.)

    All Weapon Control Cards (WCC): (placed in the body slot)
    * Enable/Disable weaponskills and abilities from a menu.
    * Last used Control checklist should be saved for each Head/Frame combination. (I won't suggest this for each AI card)
    * This removes maneuvers from the weaponskill priority system.

    Weapon Control Cards created from most enemies simply grant the generic job traits of the source monster's job to the Automaton. Bosses sometimes grant unique traits and the occasional abilities to the automaton.

    Examples:
    Sapling WCC: Adds Warrior job traits to the automaton. (perhaps add Beast Killer and weakness to Plantoid killer)
    Archaic Gear WCC: Adds Warrior job traits and adds Restoral to the weaponskill list.
    Archaic Rampart WCC: Adds Beastmaster job traits to the automaton.
    LBC WCC: (Long-Bowed Chariot) Adds a version of Homing Missile to the weaponskill list.
    Gurfurlur WCC: Adds versions of Haymaker and Sledgehammer to the weaponskill list.
    Cerberus WCC: Adds a potent triple attack trait. Greatly reduces Fire maneuver overload rate.

    Menu: (Valoredge head/body with Archaic Gear WCC)
    Abilities Control
    Shield Bash . . . Use
    Chimera Ripper. . off
    String Clipper. . off
    Cannibal Blade. . Use (Maneuver priority may be set here instead of just turning it on, selecting the element you want to use to trigger this weaponskill)
    Bone Crusher. . . off
    String Shredder . Use
    Restoral. . . . . Use

    All Ether Control Cards (ECC): (placed in the head slot)
    * Enable/Disable spells from a menu.
    * Ether Control Cards often add all the spells of their source monster's job.
    * Cards can also add an AI tendency to prefer certain spells over others.
    * Maneuvers now only control attachments, not AI.
    * Last used Control checklist should be saved for each Head/Frame combination. (I won't suggest this for each AI card)
    * The menu for spells cannot be as detailed as Weaponskills since there are so many more options. They should be grouped together, such as:

    Spells . . . . . . . . Control
    "Enfeebles". . . . . . . off
    Elemental Magic Tier I . off
    Elemental Magic Tier II. off
    Elemental Magic Tier III off
    Elemental Magic Tier IV. Use
    Elemental Magic Tier V . Use
    Status Removal(self) . . off
    Status Removal(master) . off
    Cure (self). . . . . . . off
    Cure (master). . . . . . Use
    Cure I . . . . . . . . . off
    Cure II. . . . . . . . . off
    Cure III . . . . . . . . Use
    Cure IV. . . . . . . . . Use
    Cure V . . . . . . . . . Use
    Cure VI. . . . . . . . . off
    Drain (under 50% HP) . . Use (possibly options for Drain, like "Under 25%/Under 50%/Under 75%HP)
    Aspir (under 25% MP) . . Use (possibly options for Aspir, like "Under 25%/Under 50%/Under 75%MP)
    Haste(self). . . . . . . Use
    Haste(master). . . . . . Use

    The list would auto-trim down to only those spells available with the Head/Frame combination in use.

    Example Ether Control Cards:
    Hilltroll PLD ECC: Adds all Paladin spells to the magic list. Prioritizes Flash, Self-Cures.
    Wind Elemental ECC: Adds Tornado, Blink and Haste to the magic list. Prioritizes Blink on Soulsoother/Harlequin, Tornado on Spiritreaver/Stormwaker.


    From my perspective, most of the issues I have with the automaton AI would be fixed with something like this. Maneuvers would be used to manage attachments, not convoluted AI. It also opens up a whole new world of AI cards that give new special attacks, spells, job traits and innate status effects.
    (2)

  2. #2
    Player Jar's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    caitsith derp
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    503
    Character
    Lugat
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    or just make the AI not suck..
    (3)

  3. #3
    Player xiozen's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    San'doria
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    293
    Character
    Xiozan
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Great Post!!! But I think it would require a complete overhaul of the system currently in place... perhaps if you can somehow seriously downscale it so that it incorporates many of the current in-game mechanics without requiring so many major adjustments--dunno... but good ideas nevertheless.
    (0)

    {DISCLAIMER} Posts may contain opinions based on personal experiences that are not meant to be taken as facts. What may appear as fact with no source reference may be recollection of information with no source, and may be subject to scrutiny without source reference. Any debate may be considered conjecture of all parties in that debate. Player comments may not be the expressed position/consent of SE, their affiliates, or any employees of said organizations.

  4. #4
    Player AyinDygra's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    286
    Character
    Varos
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jar View Post
    or just make the AI not suck..
    I'm afraid it will always be a horrible design concept to force Puppetmasters to use Maneuvers that do not benefit the automaton to trigger weaponskills and spells.

    Turning weaponskills, abilities, and spells "On and off" to completely separate the function of Maneuvers from their control over automaton attachments is one of the only logical solutions.

    This goes beyond an automaton curing status ailments before curing the master's HP. It's setting up automatons to work with us, not against us. Right now, using certain maneuvers to trigger certain attachment effects wrongly informs the automaton to do things we don't want them to do. These mixed signals are unnecessary.

    The system I proposed also added a new feature to the automatons that opens up a whole new world for SE, without adding new attachments for every little thing (we're out of room for new attachments in many configurations)... so adding AI cards that add new abilities to the automatons is a great idea to me. (I'd also love my automaton to be able to make use of mechanical enemy abilities like Restoral and Homing Missile, or have new job traits added.)

    (Edit: my system here doesn't 100% preclude the use of Maneuvers to influence the Automaton's decisions, it just stops the automaton from doing things we don't want them to do ever)
    (1)
    Last edited by AyinDygra; 09-14-2011 at 03:31 AM.

  5. #5
    Player Theytak's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    485
    Character
    Theytak
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by AyinDygra View Post
    I'm afraid it will always be a horrible design concept to force Puppetmasters to use Maneuvers that do not benefit the automaton to trigger weaponskills and spells.

    Turning weaponskills, abilities, and spells "On and off" to completely separate the function of Maneuvers from their control over automaton attachments is one of the only logical solutions.

    This goes beyond an automaton curing status ailments before curing the master's HP. It's setting up automatons to work with us, not against us. Right now, using certain maneuvers to trigger certain attachment effects wrongly informs the automaton to do things we don't want them to do. These mixed signals are unnecessary.

    The system I proposed also added a new feature to the automatons that opens up a whole new world for SE, without adding new attachments for every little thing (we're out of room for new attachments in many configurations)... so adding AI cards that add new abilities to the automatons is a great idea to me. (I'd also love my automaton to be able to make use of mechanical enemy abilities like Restoral and Homing Missile, or have new job traits added.)

    (Edit: my system here doesn't 100% preclude the use of Maneuvers to influence the Automaton's decisions, it just stops the automaton from doing things we don't want them to do ever)
    I'd rather they just make the AI not suck than have to learn some new, excessively over-complicated system for an already complex job. I'm 100% sure it would also be easier for SE to just make the AI not suck by fixing the 3-4 issues it has, than to totally overhaul the puppet AI system.

    Good effort, though. You got the spirit, you've just gotta work on your level of expectations a bit.
    (1)
    Siren Server since 2004
    AKA Lady Jinte of Allakhazam
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    Nutcracker had trained for years to crush the crotch and/or obliterate the ovaries of each and every monster in Vana'diel. Not even some weird thing that fish have called a "cloaca" could stem his robotic rage towards reproductive bits.

  6. #6
    Player AyinDygra's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Varos
    World
    Carbuncle
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    DNC Lv 99
    Not to sound overly defensive of my idea, but technically, it's not that big of an overhaul...

    Each on/off switch simply adds a check in the automaton logic: where it would normally have done something, now it doesn't, because you said don't ever do that, or "only do that under these simple/specific circumstances."

    On the surface this system resembles, but only scratches the surface of, the Gambit system that I'd have otherwise suggested but is clearly too much to add to FFXI. The AI Card system only adds the most basic of options, with the Drain/Aspir tiers thrown in for a little bit more control, and the ability to select specific maneuvers to trigger specific weaponskills (rather than relying on elements that often have conflicting results between weaponskill selection and attachment effects)

    All of these checks already exist, from my understanding, including some other variables the automaton takes into consideration at regular (adjustable) intervals. I don't think it would be too hard to learn how to turn abilities and spells on and off, or to remember which maneuver you selected to trigger a weaponskill.

    Also, this suggestion actually requires and allows for the current maneuver control scheme to continue in existence, so it's not a whole new system to learn. My addition simply allows for fine-tuning of the choices open to the AI at certain points.

    (I also like how my suggestion opens up future possibilities for the job that are currently impractical to implement due to limited attachment slots and elemental capacities, so it "kills two birds with one stone" in effect.)
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player Tetsujin's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    150
    Character
    Tetsujin
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    you're making it sound a lot less complicated than it is. Referencing/reworking/gutting old code, adding new menus, questions of balance and implementation ; the on/off suggestion has been made before, I don't think it a reasonable solution. It also takes the mind out of the automaton. Part of mastering the job is learning how to work with your puppet (despite having a rather frustrating AI that needs some fixing) and working with your puppet includes accepting that it has a psuedo-mind of its own.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player Theytak's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    485
    Character
    Theytak
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    the biggest issues with your idea stem from the fact that SE has stated they aren't going to change the automaton menu layout (in response to the "give us the ability to pre-set/save automaton attachments" idea that we've wanted forever), so adding more to it isn't going to happen (and thus, shouldn't be bothered with in future ideas), while adding those cards to the regular attachment slots means that you lose out on other important attachments for the sake of fixing something that shouldn't need a piece of gear to fix in the first place. This is the same argument used against "Well we could add an attachment that fixes it" or "There's already attachments that fix that (hai2uscanner)" in spite of the fact that the things being fixed are things that shouldn't even be issues. We shouldn't have to use up attachment slots to fix our AI, the AI should just get fixed.
    (0)
    Siren Server since 2004
    AKA Lady Jinte of Allakhazam
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    Nutcracker had trained for years to crush the crotch and/or obliterate the ovaries of each and every monster in Vana'diel. Not even some weird thing that fish have called a "cloaca" could stem his robotic rage towards reproductive bits.

  9. #9
    Community Rep Camate's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    It might be a little early to mention this since the September version update hasn’t even taken place yet, but the development team has already begun preparing for level 99.

    To get a glimpse of the direction we are headed with automaton adjustments, the below are the main concepts:

    1. Revamp all attachment effects
    2. Revamp automaton AI
    3. Addition of job abilities that will cure automaton status ailments

    We will be bringing you all the detailed info some time after the September version update on the forum and test server.
    (22)
    Devin "Camate" Casadey - Community Team

  10. #10
    Player esoR's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
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    116
    Character
    Esor
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    RNG Lv 99
    /hurray!!!
    (0)

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