Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

[TimeMage]

Awesome explanations, Motenten, thanks.

[Jar]

Regarding your other concerns via fTP or accuracy and whatnot, such things are already accounted for in the spreadsheet. DA/TA with limits on max number of hits per weaponskill, proper probability distributions of the number of hits (with the above posts with 70%/77%/etc are not correct about)

Explain that part.

[Motenten]

Explain that part.

SP: 6 hits, first 2 can da/ta
Avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 6+1
With 95% acc:
70% chance of landing all 7
77% chance of landing 5

Average number of hits in Abyssea with Apoc and 95% accuracy plus:

No other DA: 6.24
Brutal: 6.31
/war+Brutal: 6.45
/war+Brutal+Cirque head: 6.50
/war+Brutal+Cirque head+Epona: 6.62

So in no circumstances are you going to average 7 hits.

However, assuming you have a 7-hit weaponskill, yes, you have a 70% chance to land all 7 hits with 95% accuracy. However to land 5 hits has a chance of .95^5 * .05^2 * C(7,5) = .7738 * .0025 * 21 = 4.06%, not 70%.

Total probability of all actual 5-hit combinations after accounting for multi-attacks is 10.8%. 7 hits will land 23.3% of the time.

Average net fTP (with the first hit being 0.75): 6.386

VS: 4 hits, first 2 can da/ta
avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 4+1
with 95% acc: 77% chance to land all 5

Average number of hits with VS with the /war+Brutal+Cirqe+Epona config is 4.81. This comparison is closer to reality, but still not quite there.

Average net fTP (with the first hit being 2.25): 5.999

tho one is hitting so much more the damage differences are not that big at all so that +7% miss is huge <.<

As noted, the 7% miss difference is illusory. You actually want to compare average net fTP combined with base damage. For the gear that happens to be in place in my spreadsheet at this time, VS has a total base damage of 166 while SP has a total base damage of 161.

Multiply those together and you have:

VS: 5.999 * 166 = 995.834
SP: 6.386 * 161 = 1,028.146

Where SP is 3.2% ahead of VS.

It doesn't account for cRatio or crits, however cRatio should be nearly the same (depending on if you optimize gear slightly differently for the two weaponskills). Crits in Abyssea will favor SP because of the slightly higher net fTP; that difference in fTP, when it crits, pushes the two further apart. Overall average difference in final weaponskill damage for the gear set being used is 3.5% in SP's favor.

[Dfoley]

Oh moten your cute if you think i was trying to crunch 100% accurate numbers.... It was merely an example where i rounded up to whole numbers for simplicity of explanation.

The rest of what you said i am fine by :-p (not so sure about the 5/7 hit being being 4%, i think you are talking about the odds of only landing 5 when you swing 7 times, vs just the straight 'when you swing 5 times what are the odds that 5 in a row land.) I am not a stat stud, calculus was more my thing, but I will take your word.

I just am stating from personal experience. SP tends to spike higher/lower while VS tends to be more consistant.

[Zhronne]

My initial guess is that you're setting up gear sets in the spreadsheet and then swapping between weaponskills to see which does better, rather than optimizing for each weaponskill.

Nope, altough I have to admit my SP and VS sets are very similar.
Don't have my macrosets in front of me atm but I think they differ only for a few slots.
Cirque+2 body for SP and Usukane for VP, Shadow Belt for SP and Beir Belt+1 for VS, what else? Maybe I use Aesir for SP and Vulcan's Pearl for VS? Not really sure but I think that's about it.
Rest of the gear I have are 2% critdamage/wsdamage Moogle Hat, Cirque+2 hands, Cirque+2 feet, Usu legs, Brutal, Epona, Rajas, Pantin Cape, Ele gorget. Not the best but still pretty good I guess?

Last week I tested a bit while doing Grounds of Valor, over 500 WS used between VS and SP, I wrote down the numbers of every WS I was using, I didn't consider those with missed hits (as far as I could tell from TP returns) and avoided using Aesir Ear Pendant because of the conserve TP.
500 WS is not a huge number statistically, and the targets I chose were really bad for testing, I suppose. Bats and Leeches in Zeruhn Mines... So yeah, I guess my testing is hardly worth anything lol.
From those numbers I wrote the highest and lowest damage. SP's highest was ~2,9k, VS's highest was ~2,8k. SP's lowest was ~800 and VS's lowest was 1036 if I recall, both happened during the leech's attack debuff. I think I still have exact numbers wrote down in a file @ home.
The average number, to my surprise, was very close for both WS. I think SP's average was slightly better? But we're talking about tiny differences.

So from this little test, that hardly counts anything because of how I conducted it, it seems that I was wrong in defining VS more "consistent" than SP, they're close to each other and SP is slightly better (altough the difference seemed smaller than the one suggested by your Spreadsheet, but that's probably because my test had too many unwanted variables).

I also find it a bit hard to use VS for Aftermath and then SP while AM is up. That might be possible if you're in a party with Haste and March, but when you're solo or you don't have enough Haste, you don't get TP fast enough to keep the Aftermath up, so I found it easier to just use VS to maximize the uptime of the Aftermath.
Altough in all honesty I still get the feeling that AM for h2h isn't as relevant as it is for 2 handed weapons.
The proc rate is appearently the same, but it works only on our offhand and its related DA/TA.
This has been discussed several times, they went this way because they thought that the number of hits into a full h2h attack round is higher than the number of hits into a 2handed weapon attack round.
True.
Problem is our hits do half the damage of the hits of a 2 handed weapons. Our whole attack rounds are probably close to each other in terms of damage, but it's like 2 of our hits corresponds to 1 of their.
So our aftermath, when it procs, it's weaker than theirs.
To me this is unbalanced.
They should have reduced the % of aftermath proc (atm it's ~45% if I recall?) but make it so it can proc on all the fucking hits of your attack round.

What's your stance on this Motenten?


Oh and also, very off topic, I have a couple of questions to ask you about your SAM spreadsheet, how can I do that? PM on Allakazham? PM on FFXIAH? Thanks!

[Motenten]

I don't like it either, but there's not much that can be done about it. It's been complained about enough I'm sure Camate at least has made note of it.

And PM on either site works fine. I'll notice it eventually