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  1. #411
    Player Kitkat's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Kaliyah
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    My problem with it is this: Even if SE decided to go this route, how useful would they even be for endgame? Almost everything is extremely resistant or immune to certain spells and in some cases can only have dia or bio landed on them. A vast majority of newer NM mobs are even immune to Bind/gravity hindering crowd control efforts (makes trying to fix WoE cluster pull mistakes impossible) so who is to say that any of these spells would even have a use against higher tier monsters?

    In areas that don't require long fights you won't be fighting anything long enough to make the enfeeble really worth the mp to cast it. Seriously, even with high Skill ranges for the versions that already exist 9/10 cast will be completely resisted or in the cast of absorb-line partially resisted making the effect only last mere seconds.

    I don't want a whole line of spells that is effectively moot in large-scale fights and currently that is one of the biggest issues with rdm. A+ Skill and being blocked due to immunity traits on large-scale NM. Some of these spells we already have: Def-down? Dia I-III. Attack-down? Bio I-III. Acc-down? Blind I-II. Evasion-Down? Gravity. Biggest problem is....immunity/resist or hard cap cause we are still using spells we've had since before lvl 50 that isn't scaling with enfeebling magic well, or we were forced to waste merit points on 2 tier II/III spells that should be turned into scrolls since the lvl 75 cap increase.

    Instead of giving a new line that basically does the same thing they should rework the existing spells or give rdm something that actually allows them to land these spells where others can't no matter how high their enfeebling can go. Something like a passive trait that surpasses otherwise immunities, but instead of being immune the monster will only be highly resistant. I can understand some immunities not being affected by this still, but currently there are far too many immunities that has caused Rdm to be near obsolete for enfeebling.
    (0)

  2. #412
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Kitkat go back and reread what I posted.

    create a RDM line of state enfeebling spells and not make NM's resistant to them
    You guys asked for enfeebles, thus I present enfeebles. Stat reductions are the only enfeebles that won't break the game and thus get nerfed into oblivion.
    (0)

  3. #413
    Player Kitkat's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    436
    Character
    Kaliyah
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Yes, but you aren't SE. They are notorious for taking a good idea, turning around and implementing it and making it weaker or less useful (Decoy shot, nerfed heavy strike, etc). So regardless of what you want out of this line there is possibility it will still end up being just as useless and previously existing iterations of the proposed spells. As already shown, other source versions exist and aren't useful enough to cast regularly because of duration, resist rate, or cast/recast of the spell.

    Thing about spell ideas is you have to put a lot of "what if" into the planning. Say they do add these spells and they are good, but they forget to think about previous existing spells that create similar effects. Players figure out that they can stack and begin to do so creating a new form of unexpected balance issues. Thus said spells become weaker, or then can't be stacked causing one to overwrite the other creating a "uselessness" to the spells introduced since they now are only worth while for messing around or low-man lesser NM fights.

    Call it pessimism, but SE is very good at making something sound good with hype, then failing to really deliver after implementation.
    (1)

  4. #414
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitkat View Post
    Yes, but you aren't SE. They are notorious for taking a good idea, turning around and implementing it and making it weaker or less useful (Decoy shot, nerfed heavy strike, etc). So regardless of what you want out of this line there is possibility it will still end up being just as useless and previously existing iterations of the proposed spells. As already shown, other source versions exist and aren't useful enough to cast regularly because of duration, resist rate, or cast/recast of the spell.

    Thing about spell ideas is you have to put a lot of "what if" into the planning. Say they do add these spells and they are good, but they forget to think about previous existing spells that create similar effects. Players figure out that they can stack and begin to do so creating a new form of unexpected balance issues. Thus said spells become weaker, or then can't be stacked causing one to overwrite the other creating a "uselessness" to the spells introduced since they now are only worth while for messing around or low-man lesser NM fights.

    Call it pessimism, but SE is very good at making something sound good with hype, then failing to really deliver after implementation.
    I agree, but that applies to EVERY single spell / ability in the game. It's like the universal disclaimer when referring to SE doing something.

    I specifically chose those because their the hardest to screw up. Out of all "enfeeble" ideas, the ones that are the easiest to mess up are the complex ones due to requiring SE to get multiple factors correct. The hardest to mess up are the direct ones with the fewest variables. Look at Dia III vs Paralyze II. On paper Paralyze II would seem awesome, when the monsters use it on us it's potent and has a chance to block spells, attacks, JA's and items. So putting it on the monster would be a good idea. Except in SE's work, the effectiveness is vastly diminished, monsters don't use JA's or items, and their spells seem to be mostly immune to the effects. The things you absolutely want it on would be NM's, their regular attacks can be dangerous, except it doesn't work on most of them. So in reality Paralyze II is mostly useless. Dia III on paper is just Dia II +5%, it lasts 30~2:30 seconds and does 3hp/tick damage. On paper it looks kinda meh, but in actuality it's awesome. Monsters can't resist it, it will always hit for 15% defense down, and the math of the game lends exponential gains to stacking defense down. Dia III ends up being 17.6% attack bonus to every single alliance member, and even the BLU spells's and pets's get the attack bonus, a group that has no other way of enhancing their "attack". In actual usage Dia III is our most potent and useful spell.

    So I say again, those above listed debuffs would be the simplest. Cast spell, monster does resist check, if fail then monsters stat is reduced based on your MND or INT or whatever.
    (0)

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    On paper Paralyze II would seem awesome, when the monsters use it on us it's potent and has a chance to block spells, attacks, JA's and items. So putting it on the monster would be a good idea. Except in SE's work, the effectiveness is vastly diminished, monsters don't use JA's or items, and their spells seem to be mostly immune to the effects.
    I'm sorry, but what? Paralyze interrupts NM spellcasting plenty, it's just not as frequently seen as an attack getting interrupted, but that's because there are generally more normal attacks being performed over the course of a battle than there are spells being cast. So...yay for eyeballing?

    As for stat down enfeebles, are elemental debuffs still in fashion? Because I can't recall the last time I saw anyone bother to cast them and all they are is a stat down effect with some mild DoT, which seems to be what you're pushing for.
    (0)
    Last edited by cidbahamut; 10-08-2011 at 01:43 AM.

  6. #416
    Player Quetzacoatl's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    527
    Character
    Quetzacoatl
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuro View Post
    /sigh
    This is truly frustrating with RDMs, but I've already proven my point, and well, nothing is going to come of DD things anyway so I have no reason to stay here. I'm done now /tap out, see you around if this ever starts picking up again.
    We won't miss you.
    (5)

  7. #417
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
    I'm sorry, but what? Paralyze interrupts NM spellcasting plenty, it's just not as frequently seen as an attack getting interrupted, but that's because there are generally more normal attacks being performed over the course of a battle than there are spells being cast. So...yay for eyeballing?

    As for stat down enfeebles, are elemental debuffs still in fashion? Because I can't recall the last time I saw anyone bother to cast them and all they are is a stat down effect with some mild DoT, which seems to be what you're pushing for.
    I tend to ignore you whenever possible, but just this one I'll reply.

    Nearly every HNM is straight up immune to paralyze, as in I can cast it with 415+ enfeebling skill, tons of M.acc and HQ Ice staff, and it's still resisted 5/5 times. After that I just stop trying to land it. The few HNM's that it does land on have a pure potency reduction from 50~80%. Basically it won't even proc, and if it does it'll be a one shot thing. On anything not HNM / super immune then Paralyze II is awesome. While we fought the Tiamat v3 inside Ifrits Cauldrin one of my jobs as a RDM was to hold the baby off in a corner. It was ridiculous, hit it with Para II and I would get a good 40%+ proc rate, it was visibly noticeable. This tells me that the spell's mechanics are not weak, but that SE is deliberately making their NM's resistant to it to prevent us from using it. They are doing to Paralyze II what they did to Silence, Sleep, Gravity and Bind. Dia III on the other hand is unresistable, it's effect will always proc and always at full potency on every HNM ever created or that will ever be created. It's a guaranteed 17.6% increase in everyone's attack (actually more with Emp armor) and that is amazing. It's like berserk on everyone in the alliance.

    As for the element enfeebles, you might want to go check up on them. Their -stat effect doesn't scale well. At 150+ INT it's only -13 stat. They also don't stack well, I can't reduce the monsters VIT and AGI at the same time. They use elemental skill not enfeeble skill and thus we'll always have issues landing them at high potency. What I'm arguing for is a pure enfeebling skill line of -STAT enfeebles that actually scale. Something on the order of a reverse Gain spell, -20 ~ -30 of a Stat is noticeable. Also don't limit it to just the STR / DEX / VIT stats but also include the enfeeble effects of Attack Down, Defense Down, Evasion Down, and so forth. These already exist, in the WAR break WS and several BLU spells. Also the monster use them constantly on us. If SE wanted it would be trivial to create these, you cast it and the monster checks resistance. If pass then land for an effect determined by your INT and call it a day.

    It would give us a new line of enfeebles that would work in HNM situations and would give us a unique role to play. Sticking a bunch of those on any HNM would make it weaker. It wouldn't' break the game as the NM still has access to all it's OMFGBBQ moves and you haven't blocked any of it's actions. SE broke all our previous enfeebles because if they work, they work too well and block a NM's ability to do stuff.
    (0)

  8. #418
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    5 casts is a poor sample size but with the immunity trend I can't really fault you for throwing up your hands in despair after a few casts.

    Fun bit of trivia for you: There actually are a handful of things that have a chance to resist Dia. I don't recall what they are, but I know I saw something resist dia once because I screamed bloody murder to my linkshell about it. They were like "yeah, some stuff resists it. Weird, huh?". I think it may have been the Hydra in besieged, but I'm not certain

    As for elemental enfeebles scaling poorly...well I think we can all agree that SE needs to overhaul a ton of their formulas to make things scale better in general now that we're looking at an additional 24 levels beyond what those formulas were designed around.
    (0)
    Last edited by cidbahamut; 10-08-2011 at 10:33 PM. Reason: hydra

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