[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

[Bigboy]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

The devs may not be aware of this, so you can pass this on to them. "The general populace hates melee RDM. Thanks for nothing."

[Insaniac]

I'm as disappointed as anyone without a stronger enfeebling base being built, but to imply that is solely the result of melee RDMs QQing up a storm is silly. In actuality, some of us were looking for ways to integrate useful enfeebling into melee while making buffing multiple party members easier. Regardless, I doubt Temper took too many man hours to create, nor did tweaking Raise II or Thunder IV. There's also 96-99 and whatever the new merit system will yield. Throw out your ideas if you're so afraid of not being heard, not just sit here and call people you disagree with names.

I blame the mentality. Yes RDMs can use swords. So what DRKs get elemental magic. If there was a 130 page thread of 15 DRKs who want to nuke more and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums. RDM isn't now never was and never will be a front line job anywhere but lol situations like abyssea exp and magian trials just like DRK will never be a back line nuker. This spell may have taken the place of a new enfeeble or something that actually gets RDMs invited to parties over a level 70 WHM. Maybe not idk. Maybe SE had this planned for months but I somehow doubt that. 9/10 people with RDM leveled didn't level it with any intention of ever trying to do damage but we are stuck with a DD RDM spell thanks to a vocal minority or maybe just bad development on SEs part. Who knows, either way it's a disappointment to most of us.

[Shiyo]

70 WHM? You learn cure 5 at 61

[Lago]

I have to agree with Shiyo on one thing, which is that I had a lot of fun as a backline mage in pre-ToAU days. Keeping up with the interlocking cycles of refresh and haste was like conducting an orchestra, magic bursting on skillchains (lol remember skillchains?) was a fun little skill test every fight or two when I could slip it in between cures and buffs, and my enfeebles actually landed and felt useful. I loved the way my job changed depending on the party composition, especially on the rare occasions I was backing up a whm and got to cast more offensively.

I also had a lot of fun in the pre-50 range, before staves gave us such a strong incentive to abandon swords and dual buff cycles ate up all the time we could have spent swinging. I never had illusions of being a "top tier" DD and it didn't matter. I wasn't just meleeing, I was debuffing and throwing out backup cures after TP moves, and taking turns opening Fusion for the mnk that just got Raging Fists. I loved feeling like I was contributing to the party a little bit in many different ways.

I think both styles are perfectly reasonable ways to want rdm to play. They both embody what I always felt was the strength and spirit of the rdm job, which was being able to fill the gaps in any party setup; to step into any niche and perform—maybe not as well as a specialist but well enough to get the job done. If I had my wish for rdm we'd go back to those days, when in my opinion rdm was most fun and balanced. To be honest, though, I can't imagine what SE could do to the job to put the genie back in the bottle. It's not just rdm that's changed, it's how we build parties, the way we level, the types of mobs we choose to fight. Forgive the drama, but I worry that the Vana'diel that my ideal red mage could exist in might be long gone. I just keep waiting for SE to pull a rabbit out of a hat somehow, and I keep being disappointed.

[Seriha]

I blame the mentality. Yes RDMs can use swords. So what DRKs get elemental magic. If there was a 130 page thread of 15 DRKs who want to nuke more and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums. RDM isn't now never was and never will be a front line job anywhere but lol situations like abyssea exp and magian trials just like DRK will never be a back line nuker. This spell may have taken the place of a new enfeeble or something that actually gets RDMs invited to parties over a level 70 WHM. Maybe not idk. Maybe SE had this planned for months but I somehow doubt that. 9/10 people with RDM leveled didn't level it with any intention of ever trying to do damage but we are stuck with a DD RDM spell thanks to a vocal minority or maybe just bad development on SEs part. Who knows, either way it's a disappointment to most of us.

Then make a 50,000 page thread about back-line buffs. Should be pretty easy if you're such an overwhelming majority.

The flaw in your mentality is the presumption that you're speaking for anyone who doesn't happen to post here. Can you speak Japanese, Italian, Spanish, German, French, and whatever other language people who play this game speak? Have you polled their desires and experiences in a manner we can look to without thinking its fabricated? Is the lack of desire to melee fueled more by the lack of tools/efficiency, feeling more like you had a guaranteed spot as a caster, or maybe just going against it out of spite?

Whenever I speak for melee, it's largely to make a viable option for those interested in doing so. It's not about screwing the back-liners, tempting as it can be at times, but more in fitting to the job concept. I know that premise is LOL to some, and I'm not really interested in rehashing that debate, but it is what it is, just as SE chooses to add what they add to game. Even if Temper wasn't present, you have no guarantee there would be something else in its stead. It's not like RDM isn't a job creeping up on nearly a decade that's seen very little thrown its way since initial adjustments. The melee camp knows damn well what it feels like to be left out, especially for a long time. All I can say is we have cookies and kool-aid in the back. In-house entertainment might not be too great, though.

[Doombringer]

I have to agree with Shiyo on one thing, which is that I had a lot of fun as a backline mage in pre-ToAU days. Keeping up with the interlocking cycles of refresh and haste was like conducting an orchestra, magic bursting on skillchains (lol remember skillchains?) was a fun little skill test every fight or two when I could slip it in between cures and buffs, and my enfeebles actually landed and felt useful. I loved the way my job changed depending on the party composition, especially on the rare occasions I was backing up a whm and got to cast more offensively.

I also had a lot of fun in the pre-50 range, before staves gave us such a strong incentive to abandon swords and dual buff cycles ate up all the time we could have spent swinging. I never had illusions of being a "top tier" DD and it didn't matter. I wasn't just meleeing, I was debuffing and throwing out backup cures after TP moves, and taking turns opening Fusion for the mnk that just got Raging Fists. I loved feeling like I was contributing to the party a little bit in many different ways.

I think both styles are perfectly reasonable ways to want rdm to play. They both embody what I always felt was the strength and spirit of the rdm job, which was being able to fill the gaps in any party setup; to step into any niche and perform—maybe not as well as a specialist but well enough to get the job done. If I had my wish for rdm we'd go back to those days, when in my opinion rdm was most fun and balanced. To be honest, though, I can't imagine what SE could do to the job to put the genie back in the bottle. It's not just rdm that's changed, it's how we build parties, the way we level, the types of mobs we choose to fight. Forgive the drama, but I worry that the Vana'diel that my ideal red mage could exist in might be long gone. I just keep waiting for SE to pull a rabbit out of a hat somehow, and I keep being disappointed.

this was pretty much my experience as well. i've never wanted to JUST melee on rdm. i got to 75 back in those old setups and legitimately enjoyed it. i had no problem enfeebling and doing short cycles of refresh/haste (i would typically share haste with the whm) with the occasional "oh sh*t" cure or sleep.

back then it felt like i was legitimately doing something nobody else could. obviously refresh was huge for keeping a party running, but this was also back when fights took long enough to justify paralyze, blind, and slow. even gravity sometimes. nowadays.. it's MAYBE worthwhile to dia something as it gets pulled.. but one strong DD in an xp alliance can almost 1shot xp mobs ANYWAY..

not to mention back in the time of skillchains and magic bursts, the tank was usually left out, casting load has always hurt rdm's tp gain, but it also hurt tanks. i would often do a secondary skillchain with the tank, or sometimes even a sam who had blatently outrun his sc partner.

for a while rdm really was a role filler, you could stand in at any slot. i even tanked a few gods with my ls just for shits and giggles..


but at some point it turned into "be a whm or we all hate you" and it honestly just made me bitter. fuck that, if i wanted to be a whm i'd have been a whm. after toau came along i got most of my merits solo or on warrior.



on the upside, at least PART of why rdm got so pidgeonholed was a lack of healers. now that whm is a bandwagon job, i feel there IS room for rdm to stretch it's legs again. i am legitimately hopefull.

[Supersun]

and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums.

I didn't know Temper lowered our magic accuracy in the process...

[Insaniac]

Controversy and bad ideas = hot topic. Post a good idea about RDM and 3 people will stop by and say "Hey that's a pretty good idea"

I wasn't basing what I said on the posts on this forum. I hardly even read the RDM melee thread because it's so terrible. I'm basing it on my belief that at least 9/10 people who wanted a melee job leveled a melee job instead of RDM. RDM was actually the first job I leveled into the 40s and by level 30 I had realized how terrible it was at melee and I wasn't like "WTF I NEED MORE MELEE POWER NOW!" I said "Hmm I guess this isn't really what I'm supposed to do on this job." Since I haven't played with more than 10 RDMs who even suggested that they were thinking about DDing in my many years of playing this game I can say pretty confidently that the majority of RDMs accept the role of a back line mage.

And yes you are right I can't guarantee that this wouldn't have been what SE did even without the melee RDM threads. I said that in my own post but I definitely think they should have spent their time and money on something else and would probably have been more likely to do that if there wasn't

[Insaniac]

I didn't know Temper lowered our magic accuracy in the process...

It wastes MP and casting time to improve your ability to do something no one in your party wants you to do.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I blame the mentality. Yes RDMs can use swords. So what DRKs get elemental magic. If there was a 130 page thread of 15 DRKs who want to nuke more and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums. RDM isn't now never was and never will be a front line job anywhere but lol situations like abyssea exp and magian trials just like DRK will never be a back line nuker. This spell may have taken the place of a new enfeeble or something that actually gets RDMs invited to parties over a level 70 WHM. Maybe not idk. Maybe SE had this planned for months but I somehow doubt that. 9/10 people with RDM leveled didn't level it with any intention of ever trying to do damage but we are stuck with a DD RDM spell thanks to a vocal minority or maybe just bad development on SEs part. Who knows, either way it's a disappointment to most of us.

DRK gets a JA that increases both normal attack and magical attack.

Temper doesn't gimp anything on RDM as far as SE have said so your logic is stupid.

As for your 9/10 didn't level it to melee, if they levelled it to only nuke should have levelled BLM, Cure WHM, Buff BRD or COR.... The bonus of RDM is it's multiple jobs of which like it or not melee is one.

Also I'd like your proof of 9/10 didn't level it for such otherwise I call bullshit.