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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    Giving other jobs Cure V itself currently would cause more problems then most people lend credit to it, at least for White Mage. Of course, there are people who don't recognize this because they hate the job. They claim that White Mages who don't support Cure V to other classes but instead support Scholar getting unique buffs are being lazy and not using their tools but requiring Scholar who are doing the majority of healing in a party to accession a few buffs are legendary heroes who shouldn't be considered in game balance, despite effective White Mages having to run up to the mob to do buffs that place the White Mage closer to the mob for longer. Then they count the White Mage having to risk its hide as reasons White Mage is more powerful then White Mage's most powerful spell, and count Cure VI as a mark of what a White Mage is, despite it not being the more efficient cure spell.
    White Mage is my favorite job, and I'd be totally kosher with any job with healing magic recieving Cure V. I don't understand exactly what you're getting at with the huge sentence in the middle, since running in for four seconds to use a bar-spell or standing in range of a bat's truly lethal attack down to use Esuna has never made me feel threatened. It's very possible I'm missing your point there, though.

    Cure V being far superior to Cure VI is a very valid point, though. As far as I can tell, Cure VI is going to be very MP inefficient all the way to 99 and probably forever. Still, having what's effectively another Cure V with a 100 MP penalty is very helpful in emergencies. It would be cool if Cure VI were adjusted somehow, but I doubt that will happen until it's confirmed that it still kind of sucks at 99. Maybe not even then.

    It would be super-neat if every job with native healing magic received it's own way to deal with people losing more HP than Cure IV can handle, but I can't see how other jobs getting Cure V would render White Mage obsolete.
    (6)

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    Most arguments about who has what cure spells pretty much ignore this (and any other points that might be against people getting Cure V). Either getting capped cure potency (Abyssea you can get this without even getting the two harder cure potency pieces) or double weather effects would put Scholar at a rate where they could effectively negate the very situational advantage of cureskin on all but the best geared White Mages. Capped cure potency plus double weather would just curb stomp any White Mage not being buffed by a Scholar (72% for capped + Aura, 79% for 38% + double Aura, and 95% for both capped and double Aura).
    So, assuming Scholar could somehow cast double weather and/or chose atma to lock themselves into a healing role for a fight, they could cure large amounts of HP?

    I'm fine with this. Dealing damage in Abyssea is a joke and can be taken to absurd levels, why shouldn't healing be the same? And outside, a healing spell for 2k HP wouldn't be much better than a healing spell for 1k with 350 stoneskin, since an individual missing 2k HP needs Raise rather than a cure.

    Maybe make it so that Cure V doesn't stack with Ascension, similar to Haste, since that would make it way too easy to heal entire alliances on either job.
    (2)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    stuff
    Have you read my argument for Cure V? I've posted it enough, it really is quite annoying that seemingly no one has actually taken notice of it.

    Remove the reduced enmity on Cure V/VI.
    Give White Mage a Job Trait that covers that loss, carrying over to all Cures (potentially -agas, too).
    Give Scholar Cure V.

    Cure V on Scholar becomes a hate magnet, a spell that's just there because relying on Cure IV in dire circumstances is retarded. Outside Abyssea it would be what Cure VI is for White Mage, a spell that shouldn't even be cast unless, idk someone failed Stun and fast healing becomes more important than MP efficiency (with the obvious difference being White Mage still not having to worry about enmity). Mainly I've only wanted it for Abyssea because Scholar is very stretched there (to the degree where it might as well not even exist, but thats more due to Staggers), with my loss in interest in this being due to the fact that Abyssea is coming to a close. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to future events for now, but so far Voidwatch hasn't really displayed the need for an Alliance, so I'm not expecting it. People are still going to prefer White Mage because Cure V and VI offer a sense of comfort, White Mage has four healing spells where Scholar has two. Scholar should be able to rival White Mage, even if it's just a issue with perception, it's still an issue. I'm probably in disagreement with the rest of the Scholars, since really I just want a healing spell I'm hardly going to use, where as most want a spell they would use; which is why I must confess confusion at how giving Scholar better healing capabilities is a better option - in a White Mages opinion - than giving Scholar its own version of Cure VI.
    (2)

  4. #24
    Player Siiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotek View Post
    Have you read my argument for Cure V? I've posted it enough, it really is quite annoying that seemingly no one has actually taken notice of it.

    Remove the reduced enmity on Cure V/VI.
    Give White Mage a Job Trait that covers that loss, carrying over to all Cures (potentially -agas, too).
    Give Scholar Cure V.
    Actually the main scholar in my linkshell and I have this discussion all the time. We both think the perfect solution would be to remove the enmity down from Cure 5 and buff the heck out of Whm tranquil heart to compensate, while leaving RDM and SCH at t1 tranquil heart. It's such a great solution SE apparently can't think of it.
    (0)

  5. #25
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    I don't understand exactly what you're getting at with the huge sentence in the middle, since running in for four seconds to use a bar-spell or standing in range of a bat's truly lethal attack down to use Esuna has never made me feel threatened. It's very possible I'm missing your point there, though.
    There are also Barailment, Auspice, and Boost-Stat spells, but the point is that it isn't spectacularly lethal, just as accessioning a spell shouldn't be either. It isn't special for White Mages nor Scholars to have to jump into the fray.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    Cure V being far superior to Cure VI is a very valid point, though. As far as I can tell, Cure VI is going to be very MP inefficient all the way to 99 and probably forever.
    Between Abyssea and stuff like a Primeval Brew we can actually test what massive amounts of MND and VIT do to the spell. Unless 54 (my guess for the difference between now and 99) or so points of Healing Magic skill is better then 999 points of MND and VIT, we can tell the maximum amounts both can heal.

    According to FFXI Calculator (v. 3.87) Cure V caps out at 810 (1215) and Cure VI at 1140 (1710). This means that Cure V gives 6(9) HP/MP, and Cure VI gives 5.02(7.53) HP/MP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    Still, having what's effectively another Cure V with a 100 MP penalty is very helpful in emergencies.
    Basically, but I don't think the spell is the magical equivalent to Cure V that many people seem to think it is. I might as well act like a Scholar can Rapture every cure.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    It would be super-neat if every job with native healing magic received it's own way to deal with people losing more HP than Cure IV can handle, but I can't see how other jobs getting Cure V would render White Mage obsolete.
    Scholar can already match a White Mage inside Abyssea for cure potency, and I think it would be foolish to assume they will never get more cure potency gear. People don't invite White Mage for slightly better magic damage reduction or slightly better Regen, and other jobs are better at Haste cycling and nobody cares if you have a slightly easier time removing debuffs with a White Mage.

    Unless being able to boost a stat 10-15 points, remove Charm/Amnesia (Maybe remove Amnesia, since it is gonna be like Doom, but without the dying. And will Scholar get that? Because that makes more sense currently then Scholar getting Cure V at the moment - White Mage got Addle right?), and cast the weakest nukes in the game are game changing I don't see White Mage magically being useful in a party outside of curing. Maybe people will start demanding that White Mage hit things with a hammer?

    It isn't that White Mage doesn't have tools aside from being able to cure, it is that the job is focused on curing and Cure V is the primary tool for that. I haven't encountered any fight where any other unique White Mage spell or ability has made it so White Mage has been chosen over others.

    I don't think that Red Mage or Scholar - Scholar in particular since it has weather spells that make it much more likely to match White Mage - should get Cure V.

    -

    All that said, a large argument that is stated by people is not just the demand for more healing, but a demand for a better healing spell then people who sub White Mage, or eventually, Red Mage. Considering that not one, but two jobs get Cure IV at sub levels, this complaint is fairly valid.

    One way to fix this could be to add a tier between the current IV and V, and bump up the names on all the spells past IV. Thus the new spell would be Cure V (look! Scholar gets Cure V!) and Cure V would become Cure VI, and Cure VI could become Cure VII (or get removed, honestly, I don't think it would affect White Mage that much to see this disgrace of a spell get deleted).

    The spell would cost something like 105 MP and have a roughly 4.9 HP/MP (between Cure IV and Cure V) potency from a decently geared 90 with no cure potency gear (~515 HP cured) and about a 7.4 HP/MP potency with 50% cure potency (~772 HP cured). It would never be as potent as Cure V, but would help bridge the gap. Job levels would be something like 51 WHM, 73 RDM, 83 PLD, 83 SCH (maybe add. white), which roughly match the trend SE has set for cure spells so far.

    I think that this proposal would benefit everyone who has been asking for a bigger cure without stealing anyone's thunder. The spell would have normal enmity for a cure however - for PLD's benefit. This would mean that other jobs would have to rely on a mix of Tranquil Heart and enmity down spells. Fine tuning to this suggestion, of course, would be necessary.

    Even if SE decided to add this spell, I still hope SE considers a decent healing helix spell for Scholar. It fits the job more then cure spamming.
    (2)

  6. #26
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    I leaned on Esuna pretty hard in Einherjar and sometimes in CoP Dynamis, but I guess it's continued usefulness depends on which junk monsters appear in events from here on out.

    Same goes for really solid magic damage mitigation, it really depends on what kind of monsters pop up. Against generic mages or something that uses a strong light or dark attack, the additional 5% from Shellra V alone is less than epic.

    It is definitely true that many of White Mage's advantages depend on the kind of monster being fought.

    I'm not suggesting Cure V for anybody with healing magic skill as a magic bullet. I just think it would be better, or no worse, than the healing scene is right now.

    Giving Cure VI to non-White Mages with healing magic would also be a solution. I think the result would be similar to adding an extra cure, as far as MP efficiency goes. It would allow several jobs to cure huge amounts of HP for low amounts of enmity, but at the cost of twice the MP a White Mage would spend. Almost three times the cost, if you factor in Orison Pantaloons +2.

    This would enable Red Mage or Scholar to take over the healing role in a pinch, but due to MP costs they wouldn't be able to cast much other than vanilla support spells. Essentially becoming the worst White Mage in all of Vana'Diel, but able to keep people alive.

    I'd love to have more unique spells and abilities in the game, but I'm also weary of them. It seems that around a third turn out awful and useless and pointless. Humpty Hump's Healing Helix could be similar to Cure III with the soft cap and VIT modifier both removed every 10 seconds, or it could just end up as a concrete 200 HP every 10 seconds.

    I get the feeling that there's a one guy on the development team who isn't so bright, but they all feel bad for him and let him work on a spell or ability sometimes. He's probably the dude who came up with the formula for Cure VI, actually.
    (2)

  7. #27
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Sorry if most of this is head nodding and agreeing, but I found your comment to be unusually agreeable, even if we have varied opinions about Cure V.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    I leaned on Esuna pretty hard in Einherjar and sometimes in CoP Dynamis, but I guess it's continued usefulness depends on which junk monsters appear in events from here on out.
    Don't get me wrong, Esuna is probably what I'd list as the second most useful thing as a White Mage just after Cure V. Certainly makes your life a whole lot easier. Also makes me wish SE would buff Afflatus Misery so it would be more equal to Afflatus Solace in use, instead of primarily being "degimp Esuna".

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    Same goes for really solid magic damage mitigation, it really depends on what kind of monsters pop up. Against generic mages or something that uses a strong light or dark attack, the additional 5% from Shellra V alone is less than epic.
    I can't wait until we get some Barlight and Bardark. No offense to Bards, but I see no reason a White Mage (and by extension, Red Mage) shouldn't have these.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    Giving Cure VI to non-White Mages with healing magic would also be a solution. I think the result would be similar to adding an extra cure, as far as MP efficiency goes.
    This is another thing I thought about suggesting. Or rather, I was going to say "I'd be less offended if you were just asking for Cure VI" as a retort to Red Mages and Scholars asking for more cures.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    This would enable Red Mage or Scholar to take over the healing role in a pinch, but due to MP costs they wouldn't be able to cast much other than vanilla support spells. Essentially becoming the worst White Mage in all of Vana'Diel, but able to keep people alive.
    This reminds me of one time where I got careless and got caught by Amnesia after using Dark Arts. Its one thing to intentionally cast an occasional cure spell while using Dark Arts, but main healing with it because you can't change sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    I get the feeling that there's a one guy on the development team who isn't so bright, but they all feel bad for him and let him work on a spell or ability sometimes. He's probably the dude who came up with the formula for Cure VI, actually.
    I hope SE makes Cure VI what it should have been, somehow (I'd prefer an efficiency buff over a cost reduction, but I'd take anything at this point). Also, I'd really like classes that can heal to have a decent chance too.

    Game balance is a difficult thing to do when dealing with 20 classes that have not just unique balance problems and individual look and feels, but also several secondary class roles. I really hope it all gets sorted out in a way that not only makes everything unique and useful, but also open to different play-styles within the classes themselves.

    I'm sure being manaburn support only is about as interesting as only ever being a curebot.
    (0)

  8. #28
    Player Concerned4FFxi's Avatar
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    WHM Lv 99
    The only thing whm does is cure. Sch has rapture, and rdm has a new ability that reduces the casting time to 0. Thats the solutions right there, I'd prefer SE reduce casting timer for cure 4 or give another spell to both rdm and sch that is essentially cure 4 with regen or something. Also, I was against dnc getting the high tier curing waltz, fyi, especially when it trashed other healing jobs on amount cured. Yes, blu gets basiclly cure 3.5 and 4.5, again i was against this and i love my blu. I did like the tranquil heart idea mentioned where whm gets higher tiers and sch and rdm only get first tier (if cure 5 goes to them). However, i would like to see a more job specific solutiuon to this problem rather than just, here's cure 5. The idea of rdm gettting to recast cure 4 faster or immediately and sch getting an aoe-regen helix spell isn't too bad if its not over powered (sch already gets rapture so i dont see the problem except the recast timer on cure 4, unless you cast cure 4 then rapture cure 3 for basically a second cure 4). Perhaps cure v4.1 as i said, where a small regen effect is added (but your basiclly using it to spam cure not for the regen but its there and justifies the slight increase in mp cost from a cure 4 differenc). like I said, sch gets rapture so really i feel rdm is the one that suffers. That said, it does seem odd that rdm, sch, and pld have recieved nothing past 50 level in the ways of cure. And fyi, im against whm getting addle, thats a rdm's spell/job.
    (0)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi View Post
    The only thing whm does is cure. Sch has rapture, and rdm has a new ability that reduces the casting time to 0. Thats the solutions right there, I'd prefer SE reduce casting timer for cure 4 or give another spell to both rdm and sch that is essentially cure 4 with regen or something. Also, I was against dnc getting the high tier curing waltz, fyi, especially when it trashed other healing jobs on amount cured. Yes, blu gets basiclly cure 3.5 and 4.5, again i was against this and i love my blu. I did like the tranquil heart idea mentioned where whm gets higher tiers and sch and rdm only get first tier (if cure 5 goes to them). However, i would like to see a more job specific solutiuon to this problem rather than just, here's cure 5. The idea of rdm gettting to recast cure 4 faster or immediately and sch getting an aoe-regen helix spell isn't too bad if its not over powered (sch already gets rapture so i dont see the problem except the recast timer on cure 4, unless you cast cure 4 then rapture cure 3 for basically a second cure 4). Perhaps cure v4.1 as i said, where a small regen effect is added (but your basiclly using it to spam cure not for the regen but its there and justifies the slight increase in mp cost from a cure 4 differenc). like I said, sch gets rapture so really i feel rdm is the one that suffers. That said, it does seem odd that rdm, sch, and pld have recieved nothing past 50 level in the ways of cure. And fyi, im against whm getting addle, thats a rdm's spell/job.
    Dancer's highest Curing Waltz is worthless because of the universal Waltz recast, regardless of how high a number it puts in the chat log. Magic Fruit is more MP efficient than Cure IV but it's casting time can be awkward, with the casting time of Plenilune Embrace being even worse. Addle is so pointless that it could be given to every job in the game with no noticeable effect, but I guess I understand the sentiment.

    I don't think you understand how often and quickly healing spells need to be cast since you mention job abilities over and over.

    Have you considered expressing your concern for Final Fantasy XI by learning how it's mechanics work?
    (3)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economizer View Post
    Sorry if most of this is head nodding and agreeing, but I found your comment to be unusually agreeable, even if we have varied opinions about Cure V.
    Your posts actually make me consider the difference between the jobs and how much of a difference is needed to be meaningful, which is why I generally respond. I'm content to leave posts like "i am happi dat what mage iz still d onli 1 wid cure 5 it iz all we kan du!" well enough alone. I think less of a difference is needed for White Mage to remain unique, but we both seem to be using stuff that actually occurs in FFXI as a basis for our opinions so I see where you're coming from.

    I'd love to see different jobs fill the healing role in different ways. It would be a big improvement over both how healing works now and how it worked at 75. Hopefully the guy who came up with the Zanshin changes is currently hard at work on it, with the evil genius who plotted Cure VI being far, far away.
    (1)

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