dev1024 - healing magic

[Reaux]

Except not really. When a monster swings and puts people in the red and you need them back up to at least yellow right away, Cure IV and even a Regen IV isn't going to cut it. The only way healing over time could make up the deficiency is if it was so monstrously powerful that it had White Mages in a fit over us stealing their Regen thunder. I'm talking hundreds of hp per tic, lasts more than a couple seconds kind of healing over time. I'm not sure that would be at all permissible from a game balance perspective.


One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

[Quetzacoatl]

One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

Gah, touché on that one. My point is though, the target's HP will be able to be sustained long enough with cure 5 to be able to refresh that MP back, including the conserve MP proc and light arts savings, considering your tank is decent enough to sustain himself for that long.

Therefore, with Slow II and Paralyze II in effect, we would still retain the mana battery title for curing. This is also considering you're doing nothing else- just Haste, Temper and Cure 5, over and over and over. That shit is boring, you can count me out of it.

[Zatias]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it.

Yes they are.

Cure V should be handed out to RDM and SCH. It still wont replace WHM, it will make them comfortable substitutes when the WHM is incapacitated = good support. Aren't RDM and SCH supposed to be supportive? Cure 4 spam is counter-supportive in a way. It yanks enmity between players and over time you will find the mob taking an interest to eating your face. What's that? Now you have to waste MP on the RDM or SCH to heal them.

If you WHMs still think that Cure V is your only hold on the top of the hill then learn to play WHM. And RDM and SCH who think they will be healing only or a "ghetto whm" you wont be, especially if they fix enfeebling magic vs NMs.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Im extremly upset too, whm should not get addle, and sch should not get raise3, or rdm raise 2 - whm only job is to cure, not half-ass dd like a rdm or nuke like a sch so thats why no cure 5 for sch or rdm. I know this isnt the black magic forum but quickly, breakga is basiclly a weaker version of stunaga, since break rarely processes vs. stun on nm. Its helpful but i'd rather stunaga, thank you.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Im extremly upset too, whm should not get addle, and sch should not get raise3, or rdm raise 2 - whm only job is to cure, not half-ass dd like a rdm or nuke like a sch so thats why no cure 5 for sch or rdm. I know this isnt the black magic forum but quickly, breakga is basiclly a weaker version of stunaga, since break rarely processes vs. stun on nm. Its helpful but i'd rather stunaga, thank you.

WHM is the best job to cure, they are NOT the only ones that can cure however.

RDM are the Enfeeblers but the spells are passed to EVERY job that's not logical if they go by your theory.
RDM are the Magical Enhancers (apparently) yet have no special spells that WHM can't do better again doesn't make sense.

As for Stunga there is absolutely NO reason to add it, if you need to stun multiple people it's because of the danger, one second break from Stun is NOT better than ~30 seconds from Breakga.

[Hyrist]

Really this argument isn't so much about whether or not RDM and SCH should get Cure V so much as it's an argument on whether or not they should be adequate 'Primary' Healers.

To which my answer to that is a flat no for many reasons.

Putting aside any debate as to the course of the job and the Melee aspects of RDM, the most important reason I do not see Sch nor Rdm as classes who should become solo healers is due to the number of other hybrid classes in the game as it stands.

Too much right now do players seek to standardize specific roles to one job. You see this in how people try to establish pecking orders such as who's the best DD, when each job has unique utilities and functions that allow them to be more variant than the bread and butter playstyle.

With capasities in jobs such as Blue Mage and Dancer to be able to heal, there is no true insentive to try to force more 'primary healers' in the game. Stated plainly, the duty can, and in my opinion, should be split. The ToAU concept of pushing healing and support aspects on as few slots as possible to maximize damage output was seen by me as a failure of concept, especially considering the job that fell into that one slot more often than not, was NOT the healing specialist.

As far as pecking order goes I believe SE has finally gotten it right. White Mage is the go-to specialist on healing, and the rest of the jobs have varying lesser degrees of healing they can provide to either assist a white mage in healing, or to split the duty among themselves while providing their primary roles to the party still.

The reason why Cure V has become a symbol on this matter is because it provides the big, one shot healing that serves as a major hamper against specific cure-possessing jobs, such as Scholar and Red Mage when they do not posses it. To which I say simply, instead of trying to rely on one or the other, invite them both, or some other hybrid variant.

Dancer, Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, Summoner, Paladin, Dragoon, Scholar and Red Mage all can provide some HP recovery to other members of the party on a regular basis, to varying degrees. Many combinations of the two of them are sufficient enough to handle the healing load for most general purposes. There's no reason why they cannot be made use of... and really, SHOULD be made use of more often. The curing shortage people are expriencing should encourage more variant groups, to accompany Offense Defense and Support, instead of searching for a single sole healer who shoulders both the burden and the blame more or less on their own.

White Mage has the incredible curing potential to handle this with minimal support, but that is because that is the job's primary function. Instead of trying to create more jobs to compete on this function, each of the other jobs listed above, as well as other jobs in general should get more tools to help assist those who do manage the cure, and to lighten up the burden on HP recovery. That way we encourage a more variant base instead of the constant shifting to whatever is the current 'best' so often.

As far as Cure V itself, it really depends on how far and away WHM stays ahead. I like this distance they have. If we're to catch up on being capable support jobs, I want to see that improvement thrown to our Enfeebles and Enhancing magic first. Cure V is not the quick fix Scholar or RDM needs.

[SpankWustler]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

You don't understand what Red Mage and Scholar are actually capable of, the potency of their spells and abilities, or even what Scholar's basic abilities are called, and for that reason neither one should become a viable (but still second best) healer? Okay!

Hyrist, I do agree with your idea of how things should ideally work.

I don't think that's the case right now, though. With adequate MP restoration, I'm confident I could out-pace two or even three hybrid jobs working together on my single White Mage. If things go to a dark and unhappy place, casting Cure V and Cure VI back to back restores the HP of two people within about four seconds, and gives them 300-400 HP stoneskin.

I'd need both a Bard and Red Mage to reach that level in Voidwatch, and that feels pretty much right. The "best" healer should work best for an activity with difficulty as it's main draw, similar to how the "best" tank works best.

I find it off that healing works similarly in Abyssea, though, given how laid back the activity is otherwise. If it weren't for procs being needed, you could melee everything in Abyssea to death with Red Mages, White Mages, and Bards and not experience too much difficulty. White Mage being so far above other healers for an otherwise lackadaisical activity doesn't feel right to me.

[Lilia]

when all in the party in red numbers, can a rdm cure5 save all?

Now i can save maybe 1-2 with cure 4 before next aoe kill the rest.
And try one time spam cure4... 100% selfkill.
rdm cure5 can never replace a whm with curaga.

when i read whm posts, i think the whm dont know what the have become after 75!

[Patrik]

if SE is serious about making RDM a big time buffer/debuffer then I'm fine with no cure V... but if that new spell "Temper" is self-target only then I'm gonna be pissed... I'm bothered that they see us as the master of buffing while we are designed to only buff ourselves (/sch only works for so much)

[Crimson_Slasher]

See thats what a lot of whms see us and sch as, competition, sch and blm see one another as nuking competition (to a degree mind you, and while sch cant nuke harder, with good strategem use and timing they can self skillchain and magicburst with nukes.) But as it stands, just like some rdm state, cure V will not replace whm, can it in some situations? Sure! All? Nope! A lot of people talk about spell economics in ffxi, so i will too.

Rdm/whm Vs Whm/rdm Vs Sch/rdm
Curing power:
-Rdm: in this setup at 90-95, rdm gets 4 native cures, and 3 aoe (curaga, curaga II, curaja) as well as 2 regens
-Sch: pocketing 4 full time and 3 regens
-Whm: cure 1-6 aga 1-4(5), cura 1-2 and 4 regens, as well as more potency gear AND Solace's stoneskin effect.
Summary: Even getting Cure V, whm has a whopping 4 more types of curing, solace's skin, and potency gear to overshadow rdm/sch cure power (whom at most if i read right can get 43% if they use every augmentable piece of gear for it)

Buffs:
-Rdm: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-2, enspells(self only) Bar-element/status spells(self only,) Stoneskin/blink/aquaveil/phalanx/gain-spells/spikes(all natively self only), refresh 1-2, phalanx II, Protect/shell 1-2(3 protect at 90 i believe?), and haste.
-Sch: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-3, tier 1 enspells, refresh, stoneskin, aquaveil, blink, spikes, bar-element and status, regain, hate up, hate down, Stormsurge storms, Klimaform.
-Whm Protect/shell 1-5, protectra/shellra 1-5, regen 1-4, auspice, stoneskin, blink, aquaveil, phalanx, refresh, Boost-spells, haste.
Summary: Okay, shorter list, but right off the bat, you notice, that aside from a few odds and ends like haste, theyre all single target and most natively not offered to other jobs without accession, while white mage can do the ones we can normally cast on others (sans haste) better and for less mp, when it comes to spell economics, buying in bulk for a discount beats saving 10% on each unit (60% savings after it all vs Apx 500% savings if you are casting on 6 people.)

Debuffs:
-Rdm: Sleep 1-2, poison 1-2, dia/bio 1-3, para 1-2, slow 1-2, blind 1-2, flash, break, gravity, bind, addle.
-Sch: Sleep 1-2, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, break, gravity, bind, and lets lump in drain/aspir.
-Whm: Sleep/repose, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, flash, gravity, bind.
Summary: rdm asnd sch are virtually in the same boat as whm.

Nukes:
-Rdm: Tier 1-4 Banish 1-2 Banishga 1-2.
-Sch: Tier 1-5 up to aero (Blizzard after 95 update)
-Whm: Banish 1-3, Banishga 2, holy (holy II after update) Stone-Aero II
Summary: The only field where whm loses out, and personally ive yet to gear MAB gear on my whm to try and see how high i can nuke /rdm or /sch, but ive landed 1.2k holy and if holy II is anything improved over that, its plenty for a good kill-shot.

Overall: Cure V will make rdm/sch sufficient healers in a single target situation, it will not retire whm, just add competition.

Personal note to the white mage croud: You know whats worse that rdm and sch getting cure V? a massive influx of new whitemages gunning for all your whm specific gear and spot in events. Just let that sink in a bit.