Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

[Malamasala]

By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited. There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

I've been saying this since forever. Can't express how happy I am that SE at least thinks this far ahead in their designs and don't just take anything said on the forums as a good idea.

We understand how you feel. We received similar requests for other jobs/weapon skills and we will be looking into it.

Please do. Summoner is the job that uses staffs more than any other jobs in melee situations and it makes no sense to leave them out of the weaponskill selection. Best would be if you also re-worked old WSes into generating MP, since that is 50% of the reason to use any weaponskill on clubs or staffs.

For example, we are thinking about something like, “reset the recast time by expending a set amount of MP.” As we have stated in the threads for other jobs, this is just one example.

There is a possibility of the effects being changed drastically, so please keep posting your feedback.

The global timer system is fundamentally flawed and needs a do-over. This can be achieved with a properly designed "stance" like Hasso. Hasso for example improves your main stuff, while weakens things you barely use (magic casting).

Job ability
name: Avatar's Ritual
recast: 5 min
duration: 30 min
effect: During Avatar's Ritual you can activate pacts at any time, for an additional MP cost. Does not work together with Avatar's Favor. MP cost for pre-emptive pacts will be: base pact cost * (60 - time remaining on recast)

This solves almost everything.
A) Not stuck with yet another recast on the new ability, because it is a stance.
B) The whole issue of "global timer" is removed completely, making SMN as free as all other jobs, for a price.
C) It allows us to use many of our weaker pacts to apply blind, gravity, poison for minimal costs.
D) It allows more high level pacts to be used, but not too many too fast.

Before this ability:
- Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws
After this ability:
- Predator claws -> summon fenrir -> crescent fang -> lunar cry -> summon leviathan -> Tail whip -> Spinning Dive -> summon titan...

The change is so large, that you might as well advertise it as "New job added: Conjurer" in the update notes and get 5000 new players pick up Summoner just to experience the smooth new way to play it.


Alternative, much worse version.

Job Ability
Name: Focused Mind
Recast: 10 min
Effect: Grants 5 "pact charges" for 200 MP. Each charge lets you BP before the timer is ready, but adds another 60(45) seconds to it.

This basically lets you do 5 BPs in a row for 200 MP, with the terrible effect that you'll have to wait 5 minutes instead of 1 until you can BP again.

Before:
- Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws
After:
- Predator claws -> Predator claws -> Predator claws -> Predator claws -> Predator claws -> wait 225 seconds

Basically it just allows you to spam more of the same, and sort of "zerg" monsters, but it won't make you use older pacts for utility because you've already paid a set MP and now want as much "bang for the buck" as possible.


And finally just to show what we do not want. The "this is probably what SE is thinking" idea.

Job ability
Name: Blood Sacrifice
Recast: 1 min
Effect: For 100 MP you can remove 15 seconds from your BP timer.

Before:
Predator claws -> wait 45 -> Predator claws -> wait 45 -> Predator claws
After:
Predator claws -> wait 30 -> Predator claws -> wait 45 -> Predator claws -> say "God, 100 MP for 15 seconds every second BP is not worth it. I'm going to ignore this ability the rest of my life"

That is roughly what we Summoners fear will happen, and our own opinions on the result.



PS. I'm not using mana cede at all, because 100 MP is not proportional to the damage increase.
PPS. I'm not using avatar's favor at all, because the -2/3 perpetuation and favor effects do not make up for the 25% damage penalty.
PPPS. A rank summoning magic and a "over the cap only" system has made our A-skill only matter for Elemental Siphon. The rest is gear focus only.
PPPPS. I'm not using spirits either, due to the randomness (more like favor DoTs over nukes) and the spell timer reset on assault.

I'm just crossing my fingers that your next addition to SMN will not end up useless due to too high costs for too little return.

[Crossarius]

I've been saying this since forever. Can't express how happy I am that SE at least thinks this far ahead in their designs and don't just take anything said on the forums as a good idea.



Please do. Summoner is the job that uses staffs more than any other jobs in melee situations and it makes no sense to leave them out of the weaponskill selection. Best would be if you also re-worked old WSes into generating MP, since that is 50% of the reason to use any weaponskill on clubs or staffs.



The global timer system is fundamentally flawed and needs a do-over. This can be achieved with a properly designed "stance" like Hasso. Hasso for example improves your main stuff, while weakens things you barely use (magic casting).

Job ability
name: Avatar's Ritual
recast: 5 min
duration: 30 min
effect: During Avatar's Ritual you can activate pacts at any time, for an additional MP cost. Does not work together with Avatar's Favor. MP cost for pre-emptive pacts will be: base pact cost * (60 - time remaining on recast)

This solves almost everything.
A) Not stuck with yet another recast on the new ability, because it is a stance.
B) The whole issue of "global timer" is removed completely, making SMN as free as all other jobs, for a price.
C) It allows us to use many of our weaker pacts to apply blind, gravity, poison for minimal costs.
D) It allows more high level pacts to be used, but not too many too fast.

Before this ability:
- Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws
After this ability:
- Predator claws -> summon fenrir -> crescent fang -> lunar cry -> summon leviathan -> Tail whip -> Spinning Dive -> summon titan...

The change is so large, that you might as well advertise it as "New job added: Conjurer" in the update notes and get 5000 new players pick up Summoner just to experience the smooth new way to play it.


Alternative, much worse version.

Job Ability
Name: Focused Mind
Recast: 10 min
Effect: Grants 5 "pact charges" for 200 MP. Each charge lets you BP before the timer is ready, but adds another 60(45) seconds to it.

This basically lets you do 5 BPs in a row for 200 MP, with the terrible effect that you'll have to wait 5 minutes instead of 1 until you can BP again.

Before:
- Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws
After:
- Predator claws -> Predator claws -> Predator claws -> Predator claws -> Predator claws -> wait 225 seconds

Basically it just allows you to spam more of the same, and sort of "zerg" monsters, but it won't make you use older pacts for utility because you've already paid a set MP and now want as much "bang for the buck" as possible.


And finally just to show what we do not want. The "this is probably what SE is thinking" idea.

Job ability
Name: Blood Sacrifice
Recast: 1 min
Effect: For 100 MP you can remove 15 seconds from your BP timer.

Before:
Predator claws -> wait 45 -> Predator claws -> wait 45 -> Predator claws
After:
Predator claws -> wait 30 -> Predator claws -> wait 45 -> Predator claws -> say "God, 100 MP for 15 seconds every second BP is not worth it. I'm going to ignore this ability the rest of my life"

That is roughly what we Summoners fear will happen, and our own opinions on the result.



PS. I'm not using mana cede at all, because 100 MP is not proportional to the damage increase.
PPS. I'm not using avatar's favor at all, because the -2/3 perpetuation and favor effects do not make up for the 25% damage penalty.
PPPS. A rank summoning magic and a "over the cap only" system has made our A-skill only matter for Elemental Siphon. The rest is gear focus only.
PPPPS. I'm not using spirits either, due to the randomness (more like favor DoTs over nukes) and the spell timer reset on assault.

I'm just crossing my fingers that your next addition to SMN will not end up useless due to too high costs for too little return.

This a thousand and one times! Read that SE and introduce the first Idea "Avatar's Ritual" just like that.

[Karbuncle]

I like this idea. In this case though, I would rather it be a shorter but somewhat harder quest (compared to the original).

Aww... Thats no fun!

Long interesting quests with difficult battles at the end are the cornerstone of FF! Plus i think the longest thing about the old Evoker's ring quest was the walking, outside of that it was pretty quick/simple.

[Razushu]

Aww... Thats no fun!

Long interesting quests with difficult battles at the end are the cornerstone of FF! Plus i think the longest thing about the old Evoker's ring quest was the walking, outside of that it was pretty quick/simple.

Yeah I loved doing my Evoker's Ring quest I did it with a friend, we duo'ed most of it, It's one of my fondest memories on SMN lol.

[Genoxd]

Job ability
name: Avatar's Ritual
recast: 5 min
duration: 30 min
effect: During Avatar's Ritual you can activate pacts at any time, for an additional MP cost. Does not work together with Avatar's Favor. MP cost for pre-emptive pacts will be: base pact cost * (60 - time remaining on recast)

This solves almost everything.
A) Not stuck with yet another recast on the new ability, because it is a stance.
B) The whole issue of "global timer" is removed completely, making SMN as free as all other jobs, for a price.
C) It allows us to use many of our weaker pacts to apply blind, gravity, poison for minimal costs.
D) It allows more high level pacts to be used, but not too many too fast.

Before this ability:
- Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws -> wait 45 seconds -> Predator claws
After this ability:
- Predator claws -> summon fenrir -> crescent fang -> lunar cry -> summon leviathan -> Tail whip -> Spinning Dive -> summon titan...

Um.....you need to learn to do math...
You realize Base MP cost * (60- time remaining on recast) means that the longer you wait after a BP the more MP it costs.

60 - 30 = 30 that means 100 MP BP now costs 3000 MP.

60 - 10 = 50, 100 * 50 = 5000 MP....

this also means you're spending less MP if you BP right away, but sadly BP recast starts when you hit the ability and avatars take 5 or so seconds to activate it. So, if you're wearing BP recast gear that means the recast is @ 40sec

100 * (60-40) = 2000 MP...... how are you planning to that many BPs when they cost this much MP?

[Yinnyth]

By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited.

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't that happen already? Can't remember the last time I've seen a SMN pull out carby or fenrir. Titan pretty much only comes out for defensive reasons, and in most situations where the smn is attempting to deal damage I overwhelmingly see garuda (or to a lesser extent sometimes leviathan or shiva). Diabolos has a use as SMN immitating BRD, though I doubt that's any career SMN's favored role. Where's Ifrit and Ramuh in all of this? And even more lowly than Ifrit and Ramuh are the elemental spirits which just get summoned to siphon MP out of them.

[Karbuncle]

Well, Depending on what you're fighting, Leviathan, Shiva, and Garuda are the 3 main ones.

Titan's "Geocrush" is still nothing to scoff off, its the only lv.75 Bloodpact with An Added Effect, and its stun. its really nice fully merited.

All 75 BP's are same strength, its just some default to whats generally thought to be "The best", Frankly Shiva's 75 wins in Abyssea due to beyond, but outside People chose Shiva to 5/5 because Ice is generally thought to be "best" because it has very few mobs that resist it.

Still on mobs like Ironclads, You'd use Leviathan because they're weaker to water. I think their goal is to not make 1 Avatar far better in terms of that.

I mean, Flaming Crush, Chaotic Strike and Predator claws all have the same potential, its just PC usually comes out better because im pretty sure its Slashing damage, and more often than not Slashing damage gets a boost (unless you're fighting Skeletons, in which case Flaming Crush rocks).

Anyway, I see what they're saying, And i also see it generally happens already to some extent..

[Neonii]

Aww... Thats no fun!

Long interesting quests with difficult battles at the end are the cornerstone of FF! Plus i think the longest thing about the old Evoker's ring quest was the walking, outside of that it was pretty quick/simple.

Just make it something I can solo (crosses fingers).

[Tarage]

Please please please PLEASE ignore the first one of the 3 listed here.

Please ignore Korpg. There have been lengthy discussions with him from numerous people and no one agrees with him that having an avatar auto attack a slept mob is a good thing.

I'll repeat my requests.

1. Avatars should not ever auto attack sleeping mobs.
2. Avatars should have a larger radius in which a Summoner can use the Assault command and not have the Avatar not listen.
3. If a Blood Pact is used on a mob and it dies before the Blood Pact can go off, please reset the Blood Pact timer.

That's all I ask.

[Kegsay]

Job ability
name: Avatar's Ritual
recast: 5 min
duration: 30 min
effect: During Avatar's Ritual you can activate pacts at any time, for an additional MP cost. Does not work together with Avatar's Favor. MP cost for pre-emptive pacts will be: base pact cost * (60 - time remaining on recast)

This solves almost everything.
A) Not stuck with yet another recast on the new ability, because it is a stance.
B) The whole issue of "global timer" is removed completely, making SMN as free as all other jobs, for a price.
C) It allows us to use many of our weaker pacts to apply blind, gravity, poison for minimal costs.
D) It allows more high level pacts to be used, but not too many too fast.

Agreed, this sounds excellent.