Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

[Nala]

im not really a summoner myself but this is one idea ive always had on the skilling up issues, in addition to gaining skill from pacts and the action of summoning why cant SMN gain magic skill while thier pet melees? i could be wrong but that might help a bit perhaps? sorry if the idea itself isn't as appealing to actual smn's >.<

[Mightyg]

I think perhaps the avatars spells like shiva's blizzard IV could be put on another blood pact job ability as well. This would give the summoner one additional, but limited damage option. Assuming they add tier V spells to the avatars, I think a 1 min cooldown "Blood Pact: Invocation" would go a long way in having summoners keep up with their mage counterparts.

[Kraggy]

If your skill isn’t fully leveled and you feel that the duration is too short, we recommend raising it up as you will experience quite a significant increase.

How about providing a VIABLE way to raise SMN skill while actually PLAYING the game, rather than sitting outside Al Zahbi/Port Jeuno/nameyourMHofchoice and using a bot to summon/rest while you're AFK at work/school/whatever?

Seriously, leveling SMN skill is a joke and a PITA at the same time.

[Crossarius]

What annoys me the most when thinking about SMN Skill is the fact, that SMN is the only Job that becomes weakened everytime it levels up.
With bonus effects coming from skill OVER the cap, with every new lvl you gain, you lose your bonus as you now have less skill over the cap until you cap it again.
This design just doesn't make sense and I think it was the more lazy solution to make the skill more useful in any way.

Can't we just have fixed potency tiered to actual skill lvls rather than skill over the cap? So having much additional skill results in higher potency but lvling up doesn't weaken any of your buffs. 19 other Jobs have it that way.

Though I like that they are looking into buffs that don't seem balanced anymore.
Titan's Stoneskin should be tiered to smn skill not block an always fixed amount.
BLU got the emptyness SPell that gives 7-8 Blink Shadows. Why not improve on Garuda's Aerial Armor and make it superior to the single self-target Spell and give it more blink shadows too?

Also I agree with Soundwave that BP:wards that depend on day/moon phases are too weak even with full bonus from the moon/day. Hitting a 11 on a COR Roll is much easier (albeit semi-random) and gives much better buffs than hitting the most potent moon/day phase which is not as easy and you have not way to control that.

[Kenthedeviant]

We got a chance to speak to the main summoner himself on the topic of Blood Pacts.

• Effect

In regards to magic/abilities that elicit a similar effect to Blood Pacts, we believe that Blood Pacts have significantly high stats, effect duration included. However, with the level cap increase from 75 to 90, these stats have increased further and we would like to look into adjusting the areas where the balance is off. Please continue let us know your feedback especially for the Blood Pacts you feel need adjustments.

Again, this is a very cryptic statement, but are you implying that some blood pacts are now TOO powerful and need to be lowered? If so, I'd like to say that this is INSANITY because of the fact that virtually any DD can COMPLETELY outdamage us in a matter of seconds due to crippling recast timers on our blood pacts. Even with IDEAL atmas that allow us to deal ONE bp with impressive dmg, a BLM can cast two spells of different element in a row without pause for twice the damage our BP did, while we're waiting 60 second for our timer to even be ready again. Now, I'm not saying that we should nerf BLM (or any other DD for that matter) but the reality is that no matter how "powerful" a BP has become, it simply is not even in the same LEAGUE as other DD jobs witht he proper atma equipped because of long recast timers, so lowering their effect would be RIDICULOUS. Anyway, I realize that SE is planning to give us the new job ability to spend MP to lower recast timers "once" per use at the cost of MP, but I'm assuming that this will probably be a 5-10 minute recast timer itself, meaning that we get ONE extra BP every 5-10min (assuming MP permits this as well). Well, on a 10min timer, and a 60 sec BP timer, this means only a 10% increase in BP use. A 10% increase in BP use means only 10% more dmg overall, which still doesnt even get us CLOSE to being in the same league as other DD's, making this new job ability relatively useless, and this is STILL considering we have the MP to allow constant use of this ability.

[Razushu]

We got a chance to speak to the main summoner himself on the topic of Blood Pacts.

• MP Consumption

The MP cost for Blood Pact: Ward abilities are set rather high because the effects they grant are AoE; however, they are designed to elicit a higher level of benefit when used to support a party.

COR and BRD's buffs are free, AoE too, and stronger to boot.

• Effect duration

As we’re sure you’re aware, depending on the level of your summoning skill, various enhancement bonuses are added to your Blood Pacts. These bonuses make it so ultimately you will see a very noticeable difference in effect duration when compared to other magic spells and abilities. If your skill isn’t fully leveled and you feel that the duration is too short, we recommend raising it up as you will experience quite a significant increase. With the upcoming level cap increase we will be extending the effect duration even further.

Could we get some kind of uniformity in duration, buffs last 3~5 minutes, after the skill bonus is applied which can make it a pain to keep a cycle up.

• Effect

In regards to magic/abilities that elicit a similar effect to Blood Pacts, we believe that Blood Pacts have significantly high stats, effect duration included. However, with the level cap increase from 75 to 90, these stats have increased further and we would like to look into adjusting the areas where the balance is off. Please continue let us know your feedback especially for the Blood Pacts you feel need adjustments.

Our buffs can last only nearly as long as BRD and COR buffs, cost us MP and are much weaker in most cases. Some of our Wards need to be scaled up according to level(Noctoshield, Frost Armor, Earthen Ward etc.), they see less use in parties because of this.

[Raksha]

Again, this is a very cryptic statement, but are you implying that some blood pacts are now TOO powerful and need to be lowered? If so, I'd like to say that this is INSANITY because of the fact that virtually any DD can COMPLETELY outdamage us in a matter of seconds due to crippling recast timers on our blood pacts. Even with IDEAL atmas that allow us to deal ONE bp with impressive dmg, a BLM can cast two spells of different element in a row without pause for twice the damage our BP did, while we're waiting 60 second for our timer to even be ready again. Now, I'm not saying that we should nerf BLM (or any other DD for that matter) but the reality is that no matter how "powerful" a BP has become, it simply is not even in the same LEAGUE as other DD jobs witht he proper atma equipped because of long recast timers, so lowering their effect would be RIDICULOUS. Anyway, I realize that SE is planning to give us the new job ability to spend MP to lower recast timers "once" per use at the cost of MP, but I'm assuming that this will probably be a 5-10 minute recast timer itself, meaning that we get ONE extra BP every 5-10min (assuming MP permits this as well). Well, on a 10min timer, and a 60 sec BP timer, this means only a 10% increase in BP use. A 10% increase in BP use means only 10% more dmg overall, which still doesnt even get us CLOSE to being in the same league as other DD's, making this new job ability relatively useless, and this is STILL considering we have the MP to allow constant use of this ability.

No they are saying that magic/abilities that do the same things as blood pacts are overpowered, so they are looking at adjusting the bloodpacts. That's how I read it, but I agree it isnt worded well.

[Malamasala]

The MP cost for Blood Pact: Ward abilities are set rather high because the effects they grant are AoE; however, they are designed to elicit a higher level of benefit when used to support a party.

It seems to me that the developer is slightly out of touch with reality. He seem to consider Wards a "Summoner buff" that is expensive when used solo, but cheap when used in a party. Pretty much like we have stoneskin as a spell, but on a third party character. Following this logic he thinks Summoners should pay MP for wards. After all WHM and BLM and RDM and all pay for their spells.

However, the player base look at these things as support abilities, not spells. We think of it as a Bards song, or a Corsairs roll, and feel unfairly treated when they get them free and we have to pay MP.

The solution to this is either:
A) Put wards on the summoner himself, not on the avatars. This will make us accept them as spells, and accept MP costs.
B) Keep wards on avatars, reduce costs to match that of a BRD or COR using support abilities.

In regards to magic/abilities that elicit a similar effect to Blood Pacts, we believe that Blood Pacts have significantly high stats, effect duration included. However, with the level cap increase from 75 to 90, these stats have increased further and we would like to look into adjusting the areas where the balance is off. Please continue let us know your feedback especially for the Blood Pacts you feel need adjustments.

I'd like to point out that the reason avatars are stronger than other jobs, is because we don't get any armors or songs or rolls to enhance them. While it is true my avatar deals like 800 damage naked, and a WAR would never match it, you have to be aware that they just get super buffed and end up doing 500% the damage of an avatar in the end.

The following pacts need a boost though:

Lunar Cry: Can't have buffs depend on moon phase. While "clever" it simply means you have abilities that are useless for hours if not days in real life. Just imagine yourself that your WAR can't do fell cleave because today is Thursday, but come Friday he can use it again.

Lunar Roar: Needs bigger range (you can hardly hit 2 monsters back to back).

Ecliptic Growl: Same as Lunar Cry.

Ecliptic Howl: Same as Lunar Cry.

Crimson Howl: 8% attack for 30 seconds is too weak/short. Try 10% for 15 min or 25% for 1 min.

Flaming Crush: Deals less damage than all other avatars, unless the monster has zero fire resistance.

Rock Buster: Binds target... on a melee ability... completely useless. Swap it around to slow or something and put Bind on one of the ranged attacks.

Earthen Armor: Make it say when it reduces damage. Some !! message like "resist!! monster X's attack was absorbed partly by Y's Earthen Armor"

Slowga: Pointless pact. It would be better to replace this with another name and have it deal AOE damage + slow.

Tidal Roar: Almost perfect, but since it isn't called "Attack down" it might as well do some additional damage.

Aerial Armor: Make it 3 Ninjutsu shadows instead of white magic shadows. This would allow it to help people subbing NIN and also give guaranteed instead of 50% evasion.

Frost Armor: Damage should raise with level. At 95 these should do at least 50 damage.

Sleepga: This should have sleep II priority since it lasts so long. In other words, it should overwrite lullaby and sleep. Range needs to be longer, since 5 distance is terrible compared to BLMs 20 distance. (Range on pact, not range of AOE effect). Should also be ICE based, and the single ice based sleep spell in the game.

Rush: Should be slightly stronger. It is silly that hitting all 5 slaps only results in same damage as a Titan hitting once.

Shock Strike: Should have no ready animation. Just instant stun attack.

Rolling Thunder: Should scale with level. About Ifrit's enfire damage at Ifrit's enfire ward level.

Lightning Armor: Should stun 1 second and do scaled damage. 50ish around level 90-95.

Nightmare: Should have a 25 HP DoT effect, but attacks should wake a sleeping monster.

Noctoshield: Needs to scale with level. At 90 it should be at least -30 damage taken, and I say at least.

DreamShroud: Not based on time of day. While again it is really clever and witty, it is as bad as saying a COR can only roll 11 at midnight. It just doesn't work.

Night Terror: x2 damage multiplier on slept enemies.

Further most jobs would benefit from some Thunderspark like abilities to deal damage in AOE and debuffs. I already suggested some for Levi from his old wards.

And I think that is the "only" adjustments needed to pacts. Hardly any at all, is it?

[Vagrua]

I'm not sure if this was thrown out the window, but I remember reading about an idea of all blood pacts having their own separate timers being scaled down from low level bps having lower recast timers than higher ones. This or something similar to the charge system that BST has with Ready commands sounds nice to me.

As for summoning magic skill up, I remember reading somewhere that they were gonna make it easier to skill up in the coming updates. My memory could be off though. x_x

[Razushu]

I'm not sure if this was thrown out the window, but I remember reading about an idea of all blood pacts having their own separate timers being scaled down from low level bps having lower recast timers than higher ones. This or something similar to the charge system that BST has with Ready commands sounds nice to me.

As for summoning magic skill up, I remember reading somewhere that they were gonna make it easier to skill up in the coming updates. My memory could be off though. x_x

Was it something similar to my idea? I posted this in the Summoner forums.

Fix Blood Pact delay system

The current BP delay system is crippling SMN, we rely completely on 2 recasts for everything which is unique to the class.

A great way to help fix SMN would be to give us a BP delay system broken up by level as well as rage/ward. In most cases Avatar's get 1 ward and 1 rage in a 10 level range i.e. level 20-29. some of these are still nice at level 75+ but are useless because of shared time with other pacts. Seperated timer's could be applied to each of these(still global across avatars though) to these with lower level pact's having shorter recast Possibly like so:

Pacts gained lower than lvl10 recast 10 seconds

Pacts gained at 10-19 recast 20 seconds

Pacts gained at 20-29 recast 20 seconds

Pacts gained at 30-39 recast 30 seconds

Pacts gained at 40-49 recast 40 seconds

Pacts gained at 50-59 recast 50 seconds

Pacts gained at 60-69 recast 60 seconds

Pacts gained at 70-79 recast 60 seconds

Pacts gained at 80-89 recast 70 seconds

Pacts gained at 90-99 recast 80 seconds

BP delay could be reworked like so: minimum recast=tier cost x.75(rounded up where applicable)

ex. a rage gained at level 23(burning strike) would have a max reduction of -5 secs.

This would enable us to get use out of some of our lower pacts without sacrificing our high level pacts while preventing us from spamming them.

I think they did I got for 80-90 skillcap fairly easily, it definitely wasn't the soul shatering experience capping skill at 75 was, but then again I went from lvl85-90 fighting various NMs in Abyssea so that may have contributed to my ease.