Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

[Razushu]

I was referring to this forum. There are at least 200 Hvergelmirs out there, and I bet they are all in the hands of SMN. The more people talk positively about the weapon, the more people will get the weapon. The more people understand the strengths and weaknesses of melee SMN, the better feedback SE will get.

Read the OP. This is exactly what some people don't want to happen.

Actually I was bored in college today, and I did a little research using the AH website. What I found was that that at all stages of Hvergelmir(80, 85, 90), a pattern is visible. A large proportion of those with Hvergelmir(at any stage) have atleast 2/3 jobs that use it at level 90, with a goodly amount having all three. The most frequent combo was BLM & SMN, and there was only one or two of each job that only had 1/3. BLM actually seemed to be the most popular Hvergelmir job, followed by SMN and then SCH. Kinda flies in the face of you statistics there don't it? Not that I'm saying my number are 100% concrete but there seems to be a definite trend.

I never mentioned Hvergelmir in my OP. In fact I thought I was pretty clear in it, that all I wanted was to have a place we all could discuss SMN, in ways that was relevant to what SE's plans are for it, and leave the other stuff to be discussed in any one of the innumerable other threads that were taking place at the time. Funny thing is it was working Reps were responding quite frequently to this thread, and we were getting good feedback off them, until it got bogged down with all the melee and spirit debate that kills every other SMN thread. You know all the stuff from these threads the reps seem to be steering clear of.

[Malamasala]

You know all the stuff from these threads the reps seem to be steering clear of.

It isn't that they are avoiding the topic, it is that SE never, ever, talks about anything else than the next version update. If it isn't in the update, it won't be discussed. And sadly if it is in the update, it is usually not worth discussing since all we have to do is wait 1 month and we'll see what is in the update. At most they talk about future plans like "There will be new avatars". But for some reason they are incapable of saying "There will be no spirit adjustments".

But I'd still really want them to say a single word on the topic of spirits. Because it is the only remaining FFXI mystery. Like did they only get spells from level 50 to 75 level cap raises by accident? Or where they actively updated in the past? Why aren't they then updated now for 76+?

Merits at 75 hints at them still thinking spirits had a reason to exist. Siphon is a slightly worse hint at them still wanting us to use spirits. But where are the new spells? Then we have spirit perp costs... would they rise past level 75? And if they do, what reason is it for them to rise if they get no new spells?

Overall it just screams forgotten code. And the best way to know if it is forgotten, is to ask. Sadly asking SE is futile because they have no intention on having people keep playing FFXI instead of moving over to FFXIV.

[Razushu]

It isn't that they are avoiding the topic, it is that SE never, ever, talks about anything else than the next version update. If it isn't in the update, it won't be discussed. And sadly if it is in the update, it is usually not worth discussing since all we have to do is wait 1 month and we'll see what is in the update. At most they talk about future plans like "There will be new avatars". But for some reason they are incapable of saying "There will be no spirit adjustments".

That's usually true, but the stuff they promised SMN in the manifesto will keep tham busy until the update after this next one(because they're delivering none of it yet), The manifesto basically outlined whats going to be happening to us(faster BPs, more MP management and new Avatars), which could take anything from 2-3 updates to get here.

The problem is they will rarely turn around and say, "You're not getting __________", generally silence = not happening.

But I'd still really want them to say a single word on the topic of spirits. Because it is the only remaining FFXI mystery. Like did they only get spells from level 50 to 75 level cap raises by accident? Or where they actively updated in the past? Why aren't they then updated now for 76+?

Actually I'm not against a word on spirits, I just think the amount of silence about them is telling enough. The evidence does point that way, it seems like they were getting new spells as wild elementals were, and as soon as they stopped adding wild elementals, our spirits stopped getting spells. If you think about it Elemental Siphon was the only "buff" to them, and even that only because they are the trade off for a powerful ability. Not saying this is definitely the case, but the evidence does point that way.

Merits at 75 hints at them still thinking spirits had a reason to exist. Siphon is a slightly worse hint at them still wanting us to use spirits. But where are the new spells? Then we have spirit perp costs... would they rise past level 75? And if they do, what reason is it for them to rise if they get no new spells?

Overall it just screams forgotten code. And the best way to know if it is forgotten, is to ask. Sadly asking SE is futile because they have no intention on having people keep playing FFXI instead of moving over to FFXIV.

That could well be, the merit category is a weird one, but Siphon wasn't added to make spirits more used. It was added to give us an MP regeneration tool, spirits were made the condition of that so we would need to trade off something for it(Avatar TP, or in the case of solo added danger). I think spirit perp goes up past 75, simply because Avatar perp does. Honestly it's probably unlikely that spirits will get new spells, unless they add higher level wild elementals to Vana'diel.

[Neonii]

[QUOTE=Korpg;189758][QUOTE=Malamasala;189742]I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it.

You don't have it. The spirit has it, and only casts it when the AI determines that the player in question needs Cure V. You have no control over the spirit casting Cure V, so therefor you do not have Cure V.



While possible to proc yellow (not called grellow btw), the spirit randomly casts the magic, not you. You have no control over the spell cast with the sole exception of which element it can cast. Because you do not have control over the spell cast, you do not own the spell and can determine if the spell is that right proc.



Pets are not players, and have no control over what they do (in the case of spirits). If they cast a spell to buff themselves, and in the sole case of Light Spirit, the player(s), they do not get aggro because they determined that the target needs the buff and casts the buff on that target, and SE also determined that, because the control of casting the spell is in the pet's hands and not the player's hands, the aggro issue should not come into play because the aggro will happen towards the player, not the pet, and be detrimental towards the player, not the pet. You do get aggro, however, if you summon a pet in the middle of magic aggro.



Exchange rates don't exist? If you want to cast Cure V, level WHM. If you want to proc yellow, level BLM/BLU/BRD. If you don't want to get magic aggro by casting, level NIN. You are assuming that this is like WoW and you can not change your job whenever you wish to, which you can (abet limitations of course).

Mala negative post count: 1000. Mala positive post count: 2 You have a 500:1 ratio of negativeositive posts now, congratulations!

Why focus on the individual personally?

[Soranika]

The topic on elemental spirits seem to be very draining. Considering the fact that I joined before many of the major changes were made to SMN (like splitting blood pacts into rage and ward), I've mostly assumed elemental spirits were added for these specific reasons.
-Because the enemy summoner's had them.
-To have in temporary place of avatar of same element given the difficult nature of acquiring them. (back then anyway)
-Longevity to MP via elemental siphon.*
-Decoys to escape dire situations due to low casting time

*Elemental Siphon came some time after though, right?

The major thing I wonder about elemental spirits is if they do get updated, who will bother to use them? Lack of control, high perp cost, casting and reaction time on spirits are undesirable. Even that avatars are meant to be summoner's bread and butter there is no real reason to put any amount of time into spirits. The very least would be spent giving them more spells 75+ which means more random chance of a spirit casting an undesirable spell. Summoner would need a job ability along with updates spirits in order to becomes a little less unattractive outside of restoring MP... which again would be a waste of development time and resources on the job, especially at the current levels. They'd still be impractical for usage.

At the end of the day, given the power of summoners and the avatars, elemental spirits have to settle with being mp restore tools that never really had combat potential to begin with. They have a purpose at least. Also, on the merits, one can only wonder why there's merits to reduce avatar spirit perp cost... I reckon that may have been because most summon related gear reduced perp cost of avatars alone and not spirits.

[Korpg]

Why focus on the individual personally?

Because the person in question thinks that their posts are all positive and proactive, all while, with a straight face, continue to call everyone who doesn't agree with him an idiot.

[Malamasala]

Because the person in question thinks that their posts are all positive and proactive, all while, with a straight face, continue to call everyone who doesn't agree with him an idiot.

Who are you talking about? Because it sounds like you are describing yourself. Actually it is spot on.

The funny part is that I know you almost described me, but you probably had no idea that you described yourself. Some people know what kind of person they are, others think they are amazing.

[Malamasala]

I reckon that may have been because most summon related gear reduced perp cost of avatars alone and not spirits.

Actually all -perp gear works on spirits as well. Unless some of the new one was specially tailored to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm amazed Korpg didn't correct you on this, but he isn't known to know when someone is wrong and when they are right.

[Korpg]

Who are you talking about? Because it sounds like you are describing yourself. Actually it is spot on.

The funny part is that I know you almost described me, but you probably had no idea that you described yourself. Some people know what kind of person they are, others think they are amazing.

As I stated, about 30% of my posts have negative ideas into it, 50% is purely informative, and 20% is either agreeing or expanding on other ideas.

You very rarely post a positive post that doesn't try to demean another's viewpoint.

You can count this as a negative post if you want, but you have to realize that you post a lot more negative posts than I do. For an example, see below:

Actually all -perp gear works on spirits as well. Unless some of the new one was specially tailored to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm amazed Korpg didn't correct you on this, but he isn't known to know when someone is wrong and when they are right.

If you left out the third sentence, your post would have been positive. You instead decided to throw in a cheap shot towards me and turn the entire post into a negative. See the problem? A lot of your posts would be a lot more positive if you didn't include the cheap shots like you do.