Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

[Korpg]

I left the rebuttal there because frankly, I didn't see it until after I moved my quote up there.

Plus, that is an interesting conversation on that other thread, so if anyone wants to comment, they can comment there.

[Tarage]

That's fair. The only reason I moved it here was because I felt this had the best chance of being seen, since it doesn't look like the job forums get SE responses.

[Korpg]

Which is why most of the problems in this game gets addressed in the General Discussion.

[Razushu]

They do actually read the job forums, it's just Summoner topics tend to get bogged down with discussion on topics, that SE either feels SMN shouldn't get or don't need fixing, like melee and spirits. Plus some Summoners get very heated when discussing these things. I distinctly remember one post get modded because the poster was saying devs stay hidden because people should want to kill them.

Tweaks to pathing would be nice, but not really game changing.

[Tarage]

Tweaks to pathing would be nice, but not really game changing.

That's where you're wrong. Tweaking pathing isn't just 'Hey, let's code the AI to not be stupid. 5 lines right guys?' No, this would require SE to go to EVERY MAP and add new nodes to the mesh. I'm assuming they are using A*, because you are insane if you don't use A*. The problem isn't with the algorithm, and it's insane to ask SE to completely revamp the navigation mesh. It is both feasible and rational to remove the distance restriction on Assault, just like it is to add a 'Stay' command and fix the cooldown issue with mobs dieing. That's all I'm saying.

[Leonlionheart]

That's where you're wrong. Tweaking pathing isn't just 'Hey, let's code the AI to not be stupid. 5 lines right guys?' No, this would require SE to go to EVERY MAP and add new nodes to the mesh. I'm assuming they are using A*, because you are insane if you don't use A*. The problem isn't with the algorithm, and it's insane to ask SE to completely revamp the navigation mesh. It is both feasible and rational to remove the distance restriction on Assault, just like it is to add a 'Stay' command and fix the cooldown issue with mobs dieing. That's all I'm saying.

I gotta say, I agree with this guy. No reason neither of those fixes can't be added, and they wouldn't change anything but "ease of access"

[Malamasala]

They do actually read the job forums, it's just Summoner topics tend to get bogged down with discussion on topics, that SE either feels SMN shouldn't get or don't need fixing, like melee and spirits.

It is more like they do not reply. We've already had at least 3 topics about improving ward potency, and neither got any replies and in the end they just spun off about melee SMNs. There is no actual reason why they'd reply to this thread instead of the previous ones, except that maybe they want us to stop pestering them soon.

I like how the ward system often focus on defense. It makes SMN the ultimate protector job. What I dislike is the poor performance.

* 10% Defense bonus! Yea, cool! Oh wait, people only had 170 defense and I added 17? Not so cool.
* -15 phalanx reduction! Great! Oh wait, is it up to -35 from normal phalanx that PLDs, RDMs and SCH/RDMs got? Not so cool.
* MDB. Everyone needs MDB these days. But oh wait, depends on time of day.
* Shock spikes! Terrific, now the monsters will get stunned on attacking.... uhm 0.001 seconds stun or is it even working? That isn't very fair when monsters stun you for like 1-2 seconds.
* Hastega, this will come in handy. Oh, it doesn't stack, so I guess it is better to save my BP timer and let WHMs haste. (Would be the thing people said, if there were any wards worth using instead)

Favors enhance my opinion that Summoner are quite focused on protection. While it again is very badly done.

* Fenrir got magic evasion! That is useful, now to combine it with... oh... the MDB pact is on Diabolos doh! Means I'll lose all my magic evasion potency every time I need new MDB. And even more often if I need to apply other wards.
* Garuda got evasion! That isn't so bad either... but uhm, mainly for evasion tanks, not so much the general party.
* Titan got defense! Man so much defense he adds! However, in FFXI, defense doesn't do anything.


The job really needs small tweaks. Like favors effect remaining 1 minute after avatar is gone, so you can swap back and forth and get a ward in while you still keep the old favor potency. Potency increase on wards so they really do something. I think Summoners really could be WHMs best friend in reducing damage taken to a party, if things were adjusted in a way that made wards matter more.



PS. I think it is silly that Fenrirs BCNM dispel attack is distance 30' and our pets dispel is distance 3'. Also I think it is silly that Nightmare from BCNM does 25+ damage a tick, and you can't be woken, but Nightmare from pets do 1 damage a tick and you wake up from damage. I'd rather see Fenrirs dispel staying like 30' and being an amazing AOE debuffer, instead of a "almost never worth using" debuffer. I also think Nightmare should do 25+ damage a tick, but still wake mobs up when hit by attacks.

[Korpg]

That's where you're wrong. Tweaking pathing isn't just 'Hey, let's code the AI to not be stupid. 5 lines right guys?' No, this would require SE to go to EVERY MAP and add new nodes to the mesh. I'm assuming they are using A*, because you are insane if you don't use A*. The problem isn't with the algorithm, and it's insane to ask SE to completely revamp the navigation mesh. It is both feasible and rational to remove the distance restriction on Assault, just like it is to add a 'Stay' command and fix the cooldown issue with mobs dieing. That's all I'm saying.

Pathing tweaking is not a major issue they need to be looking at, and adding a Stay command would be nice, but could get in the way of the avatar's programming of saving your rump. Cooldown issues is a problem though.

[Razushu]

It is more like they do not reply. We've already had at least 3 topics about improving ward potency, and neither got any replies and in the end they just spun off about melee SMNs. There is no actual reason why they'd reply to this thread instead of the previous ones, except that maybe they want us to stop pestering them soon.

I like how the ward system often focus on defense. It makes SMN the ultimate protector job. What I dislike is the poor performance.

* 10% Defense bonus! Yea, cool! Oh wait, people only had 170 defense and I added 17? Not so cool.
* -15 phalanx reduction! Great! Oh wait, is it up to -35 from normal phalanx that PLDs, RDMs and SCH/RDMs got? Not so cool.
* MDB. Everyone needs MDB these days. But oh wait, depends on time of day.
* Shock spikes! Terrific, now the monsters will get stunned on attacking.... uhm 0.001 seconds stun or is it even working? That isn't very fair when monsters stun you for like 1-2 seconds.
* Hastega, this will come in handy. Oh, it doesn't stack, so I guess it is better to save my BP timer and let WHMs haste. (Would be the thing people said, if there were any wards worth using instead)

Favors enhance my opinion that Summoner are quite focused on protection. While it again is very badly done.

* Fenrir got magic evasion! That is useful, now to combine it with... oh... the MDB pact is on Diabolos doh! Means I'll lose all my magic evasion potency every time I need new MDB. And even more often if I need to apply other wards.
* Garuda got evasion! That isn't so bad either... but uhm, mainly for evasion tanks, not so much the general party.
* Titan got defense! Man so much defense he adds! However, in FFXI, defense doesn't do anything.


The job really needs small tweaks. Like favors effect remaining 1 minute after avatar is gone, so you can swap back and forth and get a ward in while you still keep the old favor potency. Potency increase on wards so they really do something. I think Summoners really could be WHMs best friend in reducing damage taken to a party, if things were adjusted in a way that made wards matter more.



PS. I think it is silly that Fenrirs BCNM dispel attack is distance 30' and our pets dispel is distance 3'. Also I think it is silly that Nightmare from BCNM does 25+ damage a tick, and you can't be woken, but Nightmare from pets do 1 damage a tick and you wake up from damage. I'd rather see Fenrirs dispel staying like 30' and being an amazing AOE debuffer, instead of a "almost never worth using" debuffer. I also think Nightmare should do 25+ damage a tick, but still wake mobs up when hit by attacks.

I totally agree with what you say in this post, and I would love to see a fix to Favor to make it worth using.

As for the bolded, I'm hoping that this thread won't get bogged down with bickering over melee or spirits, as well as leaving out futile avenues of thought like complaining about lack of response. I started this thread with the idea that maybe for once we could present a united front and drop all the in fighting. This is why I'm hoping they'll answer this thread.

Trying to limit the discussion to SE's vision of Summoner seems the best way to A) give some feedback to them on changes they'll be implementing, and B) get some feedback from them which will hopefully improve their standing with certain members of the SMN community.

[Alkar]

In general most Wards need buffing. I still don't understand why SMN has weaker version of spells and need to use more MPs to apply them (Earthen Ward vs Accession> Stoneskin for example).
Considering the master can't really do anything outside of casting a few cures, powering up the pets doesn't really seem that broken to me.