FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

[Naix]

I'll also reference Belphoebe, the T3 Pixie in Jugner, which uses her TP moves in a very specific order: Spring > Summer > Autumn > Winter Breezes > Cyclonic Turmoil > Norn Arrows. Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD. We're talking HEAVY physical damage to anyone within twenty yalms + Encumberance if you live. It's blockable, hence Ochain's defense against it, reducing the damage and prevents said encumberance from taking effect.

My ls ran through some voidwatch for the first time yesterday and we did this NM and something seems to conflict with what you just said. I own an Aegis, and with Shell 5 Norn Arrows was doing about 150~, so to me it looks like magical damage. If you can block with Ochain as well that rapes.


After we finished up with that NM we went ahead and did Hahava. I haven't done the other tier4s yet but I imagine they are somewhat similar. He is a prime example of the mob dictates what tanks you can use. In my mind there is no way any DD tank can do this effectively (atleast @ 90 cap.) Of course, we only attempted with 9 people with 2 of them boxing, I'm sure there are many ways to do this fight if you double your alliance size.

It's really simple when you know you'll need a PLD tank, and that's when a DD tank can't do enough damage to overcome the cures raining down on them. This was the case early on in endgame, where gear options weren't as much, people that were extremely well geared were low, and the playerbase knowledge was low. For example, a SAM couldn't reliably tank Fafnir due to all of the above mentioned, so something like a PLD (or NIN/DRK or RDM/NIN) was used, where they could generate enmity without needing to deal damage ontop of reducing damage better.

So, as long as mobs like that exist, then the need for PLD will be there. In abyssea where HP/curing is infinite, damage spikes are retarded, this obviously isn't the case. PLD still need a bone thrown their way to make sure it stays this way though.

[Atomic_Skull]

Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD.

I'm pretty sure than Norn Arrows is elemental because from what I've observed in VW Aegis PLDs take between 100-200 damage from it.

[Ryx]

My ls ran through some voidwatch for the first time yesterday and we did this NM and something seems to conflict with what you just said. I own an Aegis, and with Shell 5 Norn Arrows was doing about 150~, so to me it looks like magical damage. If you can block with Ochain as well that rapes.

I'd imagine that's something more of a fresh cureskin effect. It's easy to test if it's magic damage: You KNOW when she's going to use it, so just save rampart for it. If it takes off the magic defense stoneskin, it's magic. Sentinel/Invincible could also be used to check the physical side of it. I know fanatic's & fool's drinks aren't always the best gauge (Fool's drink won't block Norn), I just know that in blocking the encumberance effect, that implies you're blocking with your shield (and the fact that it doesn't rape me when it annihilates the DDs). Since I'm not used to shield blocks working against magic-based TP moves, that would lean me towards it being a physical attack.

Don't underestimate the cureskin effect from solace, it can save your life...or it can let you take 10 damage from Oblivion on Hahava while under the stats down effect from a previous use. I'm not going to say I'm an expert on Belphoebe, I've only fought her a few times, I'm just saying this sounds like a fairly reasonable scenario in my mind.

Also be warned: If you stun Norn Arrows, she'll use it again as her next TP move. I'm not sure how many times she'll keep trying, but given her special nature, I wouldn't doubt she tries until she gets it off.

I've taken down Hahava with 7, Celaeno with 6, Voidwrought with 8. Doesn't mean it's the best idea, just that it can be done. Low #s = low options for procing !!, and without allignment buffs, your odds of getting drops go from bad to worse.

[Andrien]

OK.

Staying on course:
I was thinking about what Camate said. I agree battles will become boring if PLD can grab enmity easy. What I don't agree on is that it shouldn't take BRD songs and THF abilities to make PLD somewhat more effective. In other words it doesn't seem efficient enough when players have to hold back just to make one job effective.

[Hayward]

I emphatically reject the talking point that Paladins should need an Almace and Ochain to effectively do the job it was designed to do. That tells me something is gravely wrong and requires adjustments to the job itself. Empyrean weapons should be an extra, not an essential that is not obtainable by all.

If the devs cannot bring themselves to raise the enmity cap specifically for Paladins nor raise our attack potential, there needs to be some changes made to 1) swords'/great swords' damage calculations and 2) the the overall blocking rate and damage mitigation calculations for all shields. Otherwise, the only Paladins who are allowed to enjoy their jobs will be those who are associated with the right cliques and know the right behinds to kiss.

[Defiledsickness]

pld's dont need any empy or relics to do well in voidwatch. a pld based on level 75 standards with his AF3+1 or +2 is good. the empy/relic shields just make it WAY easier not to die. i mean you could solo genbu right now, but if you have awesome gear you have less of a chance at dieing. get it?

right now in voidwatch with a empy/relic shield user, if we dont keep the pld at full health he could still be killed. 1-shotted or 2-shotted, these mobs dont play nice.

and ya, vorpal blade sucks. club ws's (true strike) do way more dmg in abyssea and my club is only 280 vs 361 sword +16skill from merits and suppanomimi (+5). and clubs have WAY lower base damage. also for 3k vorpals you have to sacrifice tanking atmas and switch to DD gear.

[Neisan_Quetz]

1.0 50% Str Mod Single hit > 4.0 4 30% Str Mod 4 hits with a ~83 attack difference? Yea I think something's wrong with that but then you said switch to DD gear and drop tanking atmas I knew what you were doing wrong.

[SpankWustler]

switch to DD gear.

If you aren't doing this for each weapon skill already, you really should start doing it as soon as possible.

People who aren't very good at playing support jobs will feel sad and make unpleasant posts on this very forum about how they don't know that <stpt> or <stal> exist, but everyone else will be filled with joy.

Not exactly on topic, I guess, but that felt like something half the people in this topic could do to read one more time.

I don't envy the guy who has to take the helm of improving and balancing Paladin. The whole point of the job is to tank really hard monsters, which it does really well, so just continuing to add really hard monsters as the level cap increases to 99 would go a long way.

It would be nice if it had a place in a party fighting anything that isn't two stories high, made out of fire-hardened sadness, and armed with a two-days dead cat on a stick; so I hope that's accommodated for as well. If not, at least it's a job solid in it's niche, I guess.

[Linh]

...What I don't agree on is that it shouldn't take BRD songs and THF abilities to make PLD somewhat more effective. In other words it doesn't seem efficient enough when players have to hold back just to make one job effective.

QFT

Quoted for Truth

Play a game to have fun. Not hold back and watch the other guys have fun

[Aeonk]

I emphatically reject the talking point that Paladins should need an Almace and Ochain to effectively do the job it was designed to do. That tells me something is gravely wrong and requires adjustments to the job itself. Empyrean weapons should be an extra, not an essential that is not obtainable by all.

If the devs cannot bring themselves to raise the enmity cap specifically for Paladins nor raise our attack potential, there needs to be some changes made to 1) swords'/great swords' damage calculations and 2) the the overall blocking rate and damage mitigation calculations for all shields. Otherwise, the only Paladins who are allowed to enjoy their jobs will be those who are associated with the right cliques and know the right behinds to kiss.

You don't have to like that it's nearly a requirement to own an Almace or Ochain... But when nearly every DD is striving for an empy or at least WoE weapon, there's no excuse for you not to as well.

And really... Almace is not hard. It didn't require kissing ass to get it, just having 2 or 3 friends really. You put the same amount of work into getting Atonement (assuming you did) as Almace requires.