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  1. #11
    Player Ryx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    56
    Character
    Rayix
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99

    Re: Madvin

    Madvin hit the nail right on the head, one that I forgot to cover. !! triggers are one of the curve-balls Abyssea threw at us, and it's something Pld doesn't excel in.

    We've got ONE exclusive blue !! trigger to us alone - swift blade, which is only a 7% chance of happening during the slashing window. Warrior cannot do spinning slash wih great sword, but if you're going for slashing triggers, you're (arguably) better off bringing Drk to help cover that instead, since they're needed to cover cross reaper as well. To completely cover slashing, you need War, Drk, Pld, Sam, & Nin.

    My group uses Paladin in-place of the War for red !! triggers, since we can cover everything except for shadow of death. There's only about an eight-percent chance of that coming up, and we just let it slide when it happens. Oh sure, it's a pain when it comes up on a timed-spawn NM we need for a pop set (Gukumatz...) but you can get KIs without red !!. I'm not saying we're ideal, a war would be better than us because of shadow of death, but you need to make the best of the situation. A job is only as good as the person playing makes it.

    I'm not going to say we should request that SE gives us scythe skill...tho I will say that if they made an 'all jobs' scythe...either the nin or myself could cover it using skill from /war. /shifts eyes. I'm just saying...

    Yellow !! requires Whm, Blm, & Blu mains, (/)nin, (/)brd, + Dispel, to cover 100% of all triggers for all elements. Technically, you could probably boil this down into Whm/Sch, Blm/Brd (ES+Threnody), & Blu/Nin. Blue !!s aren't typically much concern, and if you do care, you're probably going to wait until Blunt window anyways, Mnk + Whm to cover everything. Piercing requires Drg+Rng+(Thf or Dnc), & slashing, as mentioned before, requires Pld, War, Drk, Sam, & Nin.

    Paladin, as a job, has access to 7/13 red !!, 5/15 Slashing Blue !! (Sword+Great Sword), 9/15 Blunt Blue !! (Club+Staff). Are any of these as good as the other jobs mentioned? No. Are they something to consider, in the event that you don't always have the ideal jobs, or need the ideal job on something else? Yes. It doesn't hurt either to have multiple people testing blunt !! triggers, since relying on one person to test 5 WS, after you've discerned the weapon type, can be fairly time-consuming.

    My own posts were written not necessarily with these facts in mind, but to address the issues inhibiting our ability to do our job. Though abyssea really brought these issues out into the open, that doesn't change the facts that they already existed in the game. In order for new, post-abyssea content to be challenging, it should go without saying that the new foes are going to have enough HP & endurance to keep the hate cap an issue, if left unchecked. We'll probably see some revival of Pld regardless at that time, since without abyssea buffs, the middle-class DDs are going to fall short in their ability to tank again, let alone all the low-class ones that abyssea has given rise to. But that won't change the situation for high-class paladins, when compared to high-class DDs.
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  2. #12
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    214
    Ryx definately has the right idea, a few things I would like to add.

    First, the idea is to give PLD a fighting chance not to make it the unquestionable tank. By this I mean PLD should not be getting such a drastic change as uncapped hate while others retain the cap. Sounds crazy but I have heard conversations about PLD changes with even worse.

    Second, while elite players will always be better then non elite players, a player should not have to be elite to play a job. Any adjustments made should be broad enough that good and great players not just elite can benefit. Should a paladin in full AF be tanking at 90, no, but nobody starts as an elite player and they need to be able to play the job until they reach elite status. If you play a job just to have it youll always have more trouble but, someone actively trying to get better should be able to tank as well. The reason I say this is even elite pld are having trouble at this time, and many of the suggestions are very subtile, so much so that its possible only elite players will notice a change.

    Third, dispite what all of Port Jeuno seems to think Aegis, Almace, Ochain are not be all end all solutions, several players have these and that doesn't do anything to raise the hate cap that everyone rapidly hits. This also goes back to what I said about players not of elite status playing the class, seems alittle unfair to need Psudo-ultimate weapons/shields just to be usable.

    The final thing I wanted to mention is several of these issues are also contingent on Abyssites/Atma. I cant count the number of times someone says "I cant tank in abyssea", then when asked how many abyssites they have they say 0. I am not by any means saying thats the solution, however by not having certain Abyssites/Atma your already at a disadvantage that even changes in Enmity/Hate/Abilities may not be able to change. Basically don't ask SE to give abilities to make up for your lack of Abyssea progress.

    As some final notes there will always be a gap based on player skill an elite Ninja will always beat a decent PLD, and SE should not change that. Thats why we strive to be better at our job classes (or at least it should be). Additionally all of what I said are thoughts I have on the subject, and not directed at any posters, since most of these things are statements based on comments I've heard in Port Jeuno.
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  3. #13
    Player Mojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    124
    Character
    Cero
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    I think you have some very poor assessments of other jobs. MNK does not 'feed TP' to anything. It's among the top jobs at minimizing mob TP gain per point of damage dealt (with BLU & PLD being at the bottom of the list.) I think it's also kind of absurd to claim that NIN was intended to be a ranged damage dealer and enfeebler considering that they never truly added good ranged weapons for ninja or even weaponskills. It was always an odd DD in their previous games, that's what I expected in this game when it was implemented.

    You do, however, have a fair grasp at some of the issues PLD is facing. I think some adjustments to the enmity system are necessary, the game has outpaced it. For instance, the CE & VE modifiers for say a level 100 NM are 80/68 & 240/68. That means without any kind of enmity gear a DD needs to do 8250 damage to cap CE and a mere 2750 damage to cap VE. I can almost always immediately cap both of these on either NIN or MNK within 5~10 seconds of engaging the mob. I think an uncapped system where both VE and CE decays increased as you got more of it would be ideal. Thus each job would reach some kind of equilibrium point with tanks having higher equilibrium points than any other job. I'm satisfied with the new gear additions, there's some serious DD stuff available for PLD now. Aegis certainly needs a revision though. The defense bonus traits should have PDT tagged onto them. PLD should also receive some job trait that reduced their emnity decay. A new cure spell is overdue as well because really it's almost to the point where it's not even worth the time to cast Cure IV.
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