One Knight's advice

[Ryx]

Paladin, how to address the current issues.

What paladin is facing these days is essentially a two part problem: Paladin is unable to hold hate, due to the absurdly low hate cap in relationship to abyssea; and lack of incentive for others to let paladin tank. While a number of paladin's problems as a job can be written off as player error, there's an undeniable fact that the game mechanics are also worked against the primary tank job right now.

I'm sure such examples have been used time & time again, but with how easily hate caps, within the first quarter of a mob's health, basically any damage-dealer can cap hate. Once they reach the hate cap, they'll bounce hate with anyone else at the hate cap, simply based on the last action: Be it an attack on the monster, the monster attacks them, or basically any action taken. This kind of situation happens constantly, regardless of how much the people in question attempt to generate or control their hate, sadly. It's actually almost independent of the damage-dealing capabilities of the people involved, though the higher output will tank for awhile, until the weaker one reaches the cap as well.

When I bring up player error into this, I refer to the mentality of most paladins as turtles, neglecting their swords in favor of ineffective stats such as defense, vitality, and enmity. "Paladin isn't a damage-dealer" they say...well neither is thief or ninja, but they're still used as "DD tanks". Some of paladin's empyrean armor was actually very well designed as TP gear, loaded with accuracy, attack, haste, and enmity all at the same time. Enmity, in & of itself, is an overrated stat and isn't worth idling, unless it's attached to proper damage-dealing gear, such as the upgraded empyrean feet and body. And this is not a new trend, for paladin has always had access to heavier gear than dragoon, for example. Dragoon has transitioned from a light-armor to a heavy-armor job over the years, but paladin had access to things like the Haubergeon early on. Paladin also has access to a fairly strong, multi-hit critical weapon skill: Vorpal Blade.

Now I, personally, am an Almace Paladin. However, I've personally found that this sword, despite being amazing, does nothing to change the situation as when I was Vorpal-tanking with my Honorbound. Chant du Cygne, despite the name, is a very solid & respectable empyrean weapon skill. It increased my damage output significantly, allowing me to kill faster, but it doesn't change how hate bounces around constantly.

I'd also like to bring up an example from pre-abyssea: Colibri. The infernal pink birds of Aht Urghan, which made keeping hate a feat in & of itself, because of their food and TP-stealing abilities, along with their blatant weakness to piercing. Though most deemed it too much hassle, or simply impossible, I personally proved it possible for a paladin to keep hate on these. Using rapier-class swords for the piercing bonus & damage over time (taking away weapon skills factoring feather tickle), along with proper damage-dealing gear, such as the Haubergeon +1, I was able, in conjunction with my abilities, to hold hate against even great axe warriors on the receiving end of sneak and trick attack from thieves. That is to say: the Thf was SATA'ing the War, not me on Pld/War. Why did I bring up this story, you might ask? Because I see it as an example of how paladin *should* tank.

Alas, I should get back to the point of this: It doesn't matter how hard the paladin tries in abyssea, they can go so far as to out-damage the other people in question (which would never work against the heavier damage-dealing jobs such as warrior, monk, ranger, or dragoon), they'll still end up bouncing hate, because of how low the hate cap is set. One of the first, and most important changes I want to see, is a significant raise of the hate cap. I know people have mentioned giving paladin a higher cap, without giving it to the other jobs, and that might be something to consider, but I'd like to see a dramatic increase in the overall hate caps for everyone, just for starters.


The other point I mentioned at the start, was that other people need incentive to LET paladin tank. Even though paladin can tank better than any other job, with certain migawari-justified situations aside (that spell is an insult by the way, paladin should have a passive trait form of it, or at least a spell of their own, but that is neither here nor there), most people simply don't use them. Why? Because they don't NEED to have a paladin tank it. With all the cruor & atma buffs, even a poor excuse for a white mage can keep a melee job alive without once pulling hate. Monk's the major example, since they have a ton of hit points and counterstance to really augment their damage output, and essentially functions like a huge balloon. Monk will never have the control of a paladin, the fight will always be messier, due to the TP being fed to the monster (monk has subtle blow because it NEEDS it, even with capped subtle blow, a monk will feed monsters a TON of TP, simply because of their low delay & fast attack rate), and lack of defense. The point of the matter though, is that while having a non-tank job "tanking" the monster may be messier, it has no real consequences because it works, and results in faster fights.

What I'm getting at, is that people simply aren't rewarded for having the legitimate tank around. Even though paladin will offer better control of a monster, a lot of people simply aren't interested in that, and only in the end results of how fast they can do it.

As for how to address this issue...I have a few suggestions, but no single suggestion on its own would probably be enough. However, here's just a few ideas:
Crusade - Passive trait, similar to Fencer. Paladin gains a damage dealing bonus, based on their enmity against the current target. Or perhaps based on being the monster's target.
Radiance - Passive trait or spell. Monster gains reduced TP for hitting the paladin, shield blocks reduce monster TP.
Curaja - Paladin needs a stronger cure, perhaps something with a heavy VIT modifier, different from Cure V in that Cure V & VI have low set hate values. Perhaps a set hate value for this which is fairly high in comparison. When you have over three thousand hit points at all times on cruor enhancement, a four-fifty Cure IV simply isn't enough. Perhaps a percentage-based effect, so as to maintain balance outside of abyssea.
Fortitude - Passive trait, guards against severely damaging attacks (see: Migawari: Ichi, Sentinel's scherzo)

Paladin does NOT need enhancements to its defensive abilities. I think a new healing spell is overdue at this point, but the main thing is that we need enhancements / adjustments to our hate-mongering abilities. Cover? I personally don't care, I never saw a need for it.


Though I am not an Aegis-owner myself, I know there's been talk on the matter recently, in regards to a desire to balance against the new Ochain shield. Aegis was amazing at seventy-five, because of its shield blocks. The magic damage taken was nice and consolidated, but truthfully, nothing a mortal paladin couldn't achieve through use of their other gear. With the magian upgrades, the shield has seen only an improvement to the magic damage taken, which was truthfully unnecessary, as the original shield capped this effect together with a proper Shellra V. At the level eighty form, that reduced to a mere Shell IV pairing to cap it, which paladin has access to on their own. This is, like I said, without factoring any other magic damage taken gear. In the level ninety form of Aegis, it reaches forty percent magic damage taken, which could cap magic damage taken together with an empyrean body's damage mitigation, without even having shell up. While there are a couple fights this exact condition would prove useful for (Rani, Empousa), in the grand scheme of things, it amounts to no to real benefit to upgrade an Aegis past its initial form. If you want to enhance the shield's magic defense, you need to add something new to it. Such as occasionally annulling, or even absorbing magic damage taken entirely, or reflecting some of the damage back at the monster (made unblock-able/absorb-able, since a number of foes are able to absorb magic damage of their own element, or during certain phases).


Tl;dr:
Raise the hate cap for everyone, not just Paladin.
Give Paladin some new tools to give other people a reason to let them tank.
Aegis needs something besides MDT-.


I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, only give my thoughts on the matter, as someone who actively plays paladin in abyssea.

[Dracoth]

Although quite a wall of text, you do bring up very valid points. I've always been a DD oriented PLD (Hauby +1 at 60; didn't even get Surcoat until 75; forced my LS to use PLD/NINs by "accidentally" showing up that way to end game events; etc).

A couple of points, though:

Raising the hate cap will not significantly change the facts - it will just delay how long it takes for us to start bouncing again. Removal of hate caps will give us a vastly superior edge, not unlike simply raising the cap for us. I like the idea, though.

If cover DID something besides simply occasionally changing the target of a hit, then I'd have used it far more often. Usually, I did it as a joke on the main tank, simply to get him to react and try something else (I did this a lot when I was the only PLD/NIN over the more long standing PLD/WARs I was "competing" with). If cover gave us the chance of absorbing the damage and curing ourselves, THEN I'd probably try to use it a whole lot more often. Or, better yet, cured the person we were covering but gave us the enmity for the cure.

Aegis.... I've had a love/hate relationship with Aegis. I couldn't stand Dynamis before. The time commitment was too huge and the lag was too much for my simple system (back when I tried it). Although I love the idea of consolidating MDT gear into a single item, I agree - MDT isn't that hard to come by now.

[GERM]

"Paladin isn't a damage-dealer" they say...well neither is thief or ninja

Not true Nin was designed as a DD originally and with abilities they can produce damage without the idea of maintaining hate
THF also has abilities that would suggest it is a DD over any other role since @ 37 you can hit for 600+ damage with SaTa and I have not seen any other job do that including DRG on the same mobs

Raising hate cap like stated wouldnt do anything since DD will still reach that hate cap just as quick as a PLD will.. a job trait needs to be created that raises the enmity cap of a PLD in order for it to maintain hate over a DD

[Bilonn]

If cover DID something besides simply occasionally changing the target of a hit, then I'd have used it far more often.

This is a major problem of mine. Cover is built wrong entirely. How it currently works is to "cover the one in danger", this should be changed to "cover whoever is in danger". What's the difference?

I'm sick of positioning myself, hitting my macro, selecting my target that I've moved in front of, having the ability to come on.... And then that person moving... The ability is lost until the recast is cleared again.

It should be changed from "/ja Cover <t>" to "/ja Cover". I don't need to put a target in place. I'm going to cover who is in danger. I will select that target by Moving to Cover them.. I'll pop the ability and get in front of my target. If that target gets healed and the healer is now being targeted and is in trouble, I'll move to cover the healer--the ability stays on and covers whoever is behind me.

Don't let it target a party member--let it be an ability to cover who you are in front of. This will:

A: Speed up activation time--so that we're covering the endangered person faster
B: Allow the Paladin to fix the other people's screwups (where they move because 'you are in their way')
C: Utilize the ability to it's fullest by covering everyone that needs it while it's active.

Make cover do what it should do...

[Ryx]

Not true Nin was designed as a DD originally and with abilities they can produce damage without the idea of maintaining hate
THF also has abilities that would suggest it is a DD over any other role since @ 37 you can hit for 600+ damage with SaTa and I have not seen any other job do that including DRG on the same mobs

Their damage-dealing capabilities are superior to paladin, this was never in question. However, to call them "DD jobs" is also an inaccurate & unfair statement. Ninja was truthfully designed as a ranged DD / enfeebler job, that was made by the player community into a tank. Thief, as I'm sure we're all familiar, exists for the purpose of hate-management (planting that 600+ dmg SaTa on the tank) and (mostly) treasure hunter. When I speak of "DD", I refer to the big boys - warrior, monk, dragoon, etc.

Raising hate cap like stated wouldnt do anything since DD will still reach that hate cap just as quick as a PLD will.. a job trait needs to be created that raises the enmity cap of a PLD in order for it to maintain hate over a DD

This is far less accurate than you want to believe. A skilled Paladin will reach the hate cap faster than any damage dealer in the short term, and our ability to generate hate could use some help inside abyssea, but it isn't THAT bad. If your DDs are going ballistic right off the bat, you're expecting the fight to be a zerg, and won't last long regardless.


Though I suppose I should also clarify, that I'm not talking about some meager increase to the hate cap such as double or triple the cap...I'm more along the lines of fifty to a hundred times higher, or even removing the cap entirely. Perhaps a "soft cap" would be necessary, to factor things based on current hate such as Atonement, the Empyrean body's damage mitigation, and my own suggestion of "Crusade".


I'd also like to point out that Cover, like Invincible, is only to be used as a last resort ability. While I'm not opposed to changing it, I see absolutely no point in attempting to make it something that will "fix" paladin as a job.


However, I'd also like the emphasize the need for macros on paladin. I've met farrr too many people who don't believe in blinking on the tank job, simply because they don't want to inconvenience their healer. My response to that is simple: "If my healer is so bad that they can't handle a constantly-blinking tank, then I'm probably boned anyways, before I compromise my own playstyle." I blink, constantly, for EVERYTHING. I'm 66~/80 inventory, without even pulling out my red !! weapons, MDT or PDT builds when I'm on PLD/NIN. <stpt> & <stal> are invaluable, I keep a set of Cure III and Cure IV macros on <stal> for curing anyone else in my alliance that has room to be cured, in the event that I need to build hate while the mob isn't taking damage. If it's taking damage, then it's a waste of my time to cast cure on anyone but myself, because it takes away from my time doing damage.

Thinking about it though, I'd like to see Divine Emblem converted into a trait that raises the enmity generated by flash on every cast, as opposed to once every ten minutes. Just a few subtle changes here and there, perhaps even a passive enmity generatation trait for casting, that compounds with enmity gear.


A moderately good paladin shouldn't be pressed against the wall, just trying to bounce hate with middle-class damage dealers. Paladin should have some natural advantages, and a few subtle adjustments to the job have the potential to go a long way. You have to remember, that right now, we're all focused on inside-abyssea situations. I'm sincerely hoping that future updates will see other content brought forward, where we don't have all these super powers throwing balance out the window.


I'm not trying to suggest that paladin be over-powered to such a level that unbalances skill levels. A mediocre paladin should be driven to wits end, trying to keep hate off an elite damage-dealer going all out. It's being confronted with these situations that drives a person to do better, and be better at their jobs. Unfortunately, because of atma mostly, the gap between the elite & the mediocre has become much harder to see, and the unskilled suffer from delusions of adequacy.


And don't misinterpret what I mean by that. I'm not trying to insult anyone. But the people who're truly dedicated to being the best they can at their jobs, should be night against day when compared to someone who only moderately cares about the job. Prior to abyssea, this was fairly apparent, in comparing the people who were dedicated to their jobs for the long haul, vs. the people who just geared them up to exp with them. I'll use bard for an example: A LOT of people leveled bard, prior to abyssea, for the purpose of getting into merit parties. Though they were somewhat capable at filling the needs of a bard in exp situation (pulling, sing buffs), they wouldn't know how to react in endgame events. This brought about what we call "exp brd", or someone who only leveled it to merit with it, and didn't truly care about the job itself.

My objective here is to clarify what the problems are with the mechanics behind paladin, and possible solutions for them. But owell /rant off...for now.

[Zebra]

the only way to fix paladin's hateholding skills is to nerf every single other job in this game.

[Aeonk]

the only way to fix paladin's hateholding skills is to nerf every single other job in this game.

Or for the PLD to get an Almace.

[Ryx]

the only way to fix paladin's hateholding skills is to nerf every single other job in this game.

The only major re-vamp paladin desperately *needs* is a dramatic increase (or removal) of the hate cap. It's the bane of a skilled player's existance right now. Most of my other suggestions have just been subtle additions, such as boosting our offensive capabilities slightly and reducing TP feed. We don't need to change any other job, just so we can feel important again.

The key to being a good paladin is to use a combination of hate-generating tools, and tailoring macros to make the best use out of every action.

I'd also like to mention here, something I brought up in my reply to another thread. Opposed to Curaja, we could have a passive trait, which charges with damage taken, and gets converted into cure potency, simiilar to how afflatus solace converts cure potency into holy damage.

Cure IV, even with proper cure potency gear, is too weak inside of abyssea. But at the same time, giving us a stronger cure would run the risk of turning us into a healer class, which isn't what paladin is supposed to be.


I don't want to see anything that gives paladin a blatant advantage over other jobs, only a subtle one that leans towards us being able to tank properly again. Let the people who work hard at their jobs be able to do them, but make them work for it. Tanking over high-class DDs is not an Altana-given right to Paladin, it must be earned through determination & commitment to the job. This is why I don't want to see a higher hate cap made exclusive to paladin, because it would let even a turtle hold hate over ballistic DDs. And also because I want ninja to be able to tank off ranger, so that I might actually get to *use* mine for a change. But that is neither here nor there.


I'd also like to point out that Almace is a nice tool, but not an essential one. Vorpal-tanking works much the same as CdC-tanking, similar to how Atonement-tanking *used* to work. The only real difference between Vorpal-tanking and CdC-tanking is the damage output, which results in little difference in your actual tanking ability right now, since the hate cap comes farrr too quickly. It only makes others more accepting, in that you're a better DD with Almace...and CdC can't come up as a blue !! proc during the slashing window. Try tanking Orthrus without Vorpal blade...I gave up after a couple spinning slashes with my great sword and started timing it so my vorpals weren't clean.

Admittedly, when I saw Vorpal trigger blue !!, I just told the ninja to tank, but then I got tired of my inferior damage with the great sword. Inside of abyssea, sword > great sword. It's part of why dark knights have been crying, is because they lack any strong critical-hit weapon skills on their primary weapons (Scythe, Great Sword), and thus they do better damage with Vorpal blade or Rampage.

[Madvin]

Everything OP says is well thought out and true, but the the problem with abyssea goes actually a little bit deeper. Suppose EITHER 1. pld gets a new hate cap OR 2. pld gets some rockin new DD abilities to keep up with the mnk/nin/wars. So? It wouldn't change anything. It's important to realize that in abyssea ANY job combination can kill just about anything. You just need counter or shadows and some healing behind you can there you go, you can kill everything. You don't need PLD's unique self-sufficient-survivability because slapping a whm on anything gives it near perfect survivability alone. DD + Healing.

The only jobs that matter, therefore, are the jobs that make your time in abyssea more worthwhile. That is, getting the drops to actually drop. NIN WAR MNK WHM BLM BLU (and then brd and thf for good measure). No one would give a shit if PLD suddenly became a top tier DD as well as tanking prowess. When you're putting together your group the first thing you do is group together the procs that you want most efficiently with as few people as possible. This means getting exactly those jobs that I listed. Then anyone else who's coming picks their "best" job (basically the job that would either speed up your kills the most or help farm time/pop items/KIs from boxes most efficiently). You dont need to add a PLD to your NM fighting team because if you want the fight to go faster just come a true DD. You dont need to add a PLD to box farming because there's better cleaving jobs (or jobs that can just tear through mobs one by one).

Don't get me wrong, I love PLD and think it's a great job. The hybrid ability of extra curing + decent damage + great tanking makes them kind of like a DNC or something. Once you have your proccing core it's alright to sprinkle a PLD on top, but not anymore so than sprinkling any other job like DNC or BRD or COR or RDM or what have you. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want PLD to be wanted in abyssea more, you should be asking for things like more blue/red procs, more banish spells, or maybe a way to cleave mobs on par with blus and wars. My two cents

PLD will be amazing again when there's new content beyond abyssea, just wait~
Same for SAM, DRK, COR, SCH, and so on.

[Kuwabaraone]

Rather than focus on better attack, let's stick to our strongsuit: Defense. This is threefold:

First, defense against damage: A given, yes, but can't be stressed enough. We could possibly extend the duration of Sentinel and Rampart to 3 minutes for both as opposed to 30 secs, along with cutting the cooldown time to 3 minutes. Also cutting Shield Bash down to 2:00 recast would serve PLDs well (could also throw in an Emnity increase on Shield Bash too). As for HP, just raise the cap for PLD cures to near double that of WHMs for their Cures. No need for higher cures if your cures are more potent.

Second, defense against enfeeblements: another given, yes, but just as important. Fealty should be extended from 1 minute to 5 minutes with the cooldown dropped to 5 minutes. Also, have this cover all forms of enfeeblement; this includes Amnesia, Doom, Terror, and Death.

Third, and this is most important, defense against Emnity Loss: Creed is a step in the right direction for this. Since we're hitting the ceiling on Hate, we need to STAY at the ceiling. Gearwise, having weapons and armor that reduce emnity loss will be a great help, as well as increasing the values of Reduce Emnity Loss Merits for PLDs (Instead of the 70% reduction, just raise it to 90%). The Enlight Spell could also have this Reduction as a latent effect, along with Divine Emblem (or even make it so that USING Divine Emblem will generate Emnity automatically, similar to Flash).

Just some food for thought, fellow defenders!

KB1

PS. EAGLEHEART! MY PLD RIVAL! I WILL SURPASS YOU! THIS IS MY GOAL!