Why more haste?

[Cream_Soda]

Mnk/war w/ brutal, atma of apocalypse, epona's ring.

18% double attack, 18% triple attack.

Triple attack has priority over double attack (if both go to proc in the same attack round, you'll get the triple attack, but wo'nt get the double attack)

Using 100 attack rounds as an example.

Triple attack will proc 18 times.

Double attack would proc 18 times, but 18% of the time it'll be stopped by triple attack, so 18 * (.82) = an average of 14.76 DA procs.

18 TA procs at 2 extra hits per proc = 36 extra hits.
14.76 DA procs at 1 extra hit per proc = 14.76 extra hits.

100 + 36 + 14.76 = 150.76 attacks on average.

Now, let's do the same, but using 20% DA (Twilight belt).


20 extra hits, but only activates 82% of the time due to triple attack.


20 (.82) = 16.4 extra attacks. (vs 14.76 w/ 18% DA)


100 + 36 + 16.4 = 152.4 attacks on average.


152.4/150.76 = 1.09% increase in damage as compared to adding 2% DA to 0 DA and 0 TA. Essentially half the effectiveness.

The DMG+ on the kick boots themselves should give more than a 1% increase, yet alone the 5/5 set bonus on af3+2 as well as the .3% haste you're getting going from 25 to 26.


Edit: it's going to be even less than that 1% in actuality because I never accounted for kick attack damage, so the TP gain % increase and total damage % increase are going to be even less once you look at the kicks.

[Leonlionheart]

I was under the impression that Double Attack and Triple Attack could proc on both fists, but not on kick attacks.

I.E. instead of 18 additional hits in 100 attack rounds, its 36 from double attack with /war, brutal, epona's. 40 with twilight belt.

Assuming 10% proc rate from 5/5 af3+2, and a 22% Kick attack rate (Base+Merits+AF3+2 legs), that's generously giving 2 more hits per 100 attack rounds from the set bonus.

For PURE TP BUILD, Twilight+Fuma's+AF3 Head, hands, legs > BB + 5/5AF3+2. However the damage bonus on feet is going to outway that anyway, and the effect of double attack is lowered when using Atma of the Apocalypse.

Edit: I have hit 8 times in one attack round with Atma of the Apocalypse and 4/5 AF3+2 (I use the twilight belt+Fuma's to cap haste because Black Belt is too much of a time sink for a minor upgrade, if one at all when using Revenant Fists +2 and spamming Victory Smite. EVEN LESS of an upgrade considering the aftermath of Verethragna only procs on mainhand hits.) Meaning yes- TA and DA proc on both fists, but not on Kick Attacks.

[Rambus]

Someone told me about this thread and I was like well it might be possible if you are at cap haste, but this thing is you lose to much getting to cap haste on twilight belt::

Full af3+2 has 16% haste.

+ Twilight = 23% haste.

You have to swap af3+2 shoes to haste shoes.

Full af3+2 + black belt = 28% haste rounds down to 25 due to cap.

2% DA doesn't beat the kick dmg from af3+3 shoes along as 5/5 set bonus.

If you don't have black belt, even brown belt and af3+2 shoes will beat any combo you can come up w/ twilight.

Twilight is trash.

Thanks for the post, hopfully it dont come up anymore.
and:

just to tack on, to really cap haste, you're gonna need to use fumas, not usukane, so you're not getting the acc and att. 2% DA and 3 agi instead of capped haste, and the set bonus + the beefy kick attack bonus is a no brainer.

[Cream_Soda]

I was under the impression that Double Attack and Triple Attack could proc on both fists, but not on kick attacks.

They can. The math is still correct however. in 100 attack rounds would just be looking at 200 instead of 100 (i do that a lot for some reason).

% wise everything would match up applying it to 200 punches instead of 100.

[Greatguardian]

As noted above, Black Belt destroys Twilight before even taking AF3+2 procs into account. Going from 4/5 to 5/5 AF3+2 is a 2% increase (3% to 5%) to proc an additional kick, not affected by DA/TA. In essence, it's +2% DA in a separate term which is not affected by the (semantics, I know) decreasing returns of standard DA.

In essence, putting absolutely everything in the favor of Twilight and only looking at attacks per round, you have:

(Triple Attack rate) + (Double Attack) + (Kick Attacks) + (Minimum Punches) + (AF3+2 proc)

(0.18)(2) + (1 - 0.18)(0.20) + (0.15) + 2 = .36 + .164 + .15 + 2 + 0.03= 2.704 attacks per round with Twilight

vs

(0.18)(2) + (1 - 0.18)(0.18) + (0.15) + 2 + 0.05 = .36 + .1476 + 0.15 + 2 + 0.05 = 2.7076 attacks per round with 5/5 AF3+2.

You're not getting more DA procs with Twilight and Fumas. You're getting fewer. And your additional attacks with AF3+2 do *More Damage* than your punches because you're wearing D+45 shoes.

I'm beating a dead horse but I figured it was worth pointing out that Twilight doesn't even have an edge in attacks per round either. Seriously, there is no reason at all for any MNK to not use a Black or Brown belt.

[SNK]

Anyone who seriously uses a Twilight Belt for ANYTHING over a Black Belt doesn't deserve to have either. Terrible suggestion to even think that Twilight has anything over Black Belt...

[Alei_Bahamut]

Anyone who seriously uses a Twilight Belt for ANYTHING over a Black Belt doesn't deserve to have either. Terrible suggestion to even think that Twilight has anything over Black Belt...

I would use twilight for WS. Double attack proc on Ascetic's Fury [yes please]! I do not have Victory Smite but I believe it works the same way with double attack proc on it raising damage to even higher levels~

[Martinius]

I would use twilight for WS. Double attack proc on Ascetic's Fury [yes please]! I do not have Victory Smite but I believe it works the same way with double attack proc on it raising damage to even higher levels~

edit: i r teh dumb. you'll get more consistent results with black belt or an elemental belt, but twilight gives potential for spikes.

[Alei_Bahamut]

I don't think STR+7 is going to be a game breaker in Abyssea for consistantly high damage. By your logic you would have me switch to lolSTR and lolVIT rings instead of epona's ring. Or perhaps cuchulan w/e instead of Atheling mantle.

[Martinius]

yeah, i was actually coming back to the site to change my post lol, as i thought of epona's ring and realized it was a comparable item, and in this, i was stupid