A Puppetmaster Suggestion.

[Dfoley]

The way i look at it, i add 10% haste mediocre atk/acc and some DA when I use maneuvers while meleeing beside my pet. I only use the maneuvers however in-between pulls and not during a fight. Until our pets get strong enough to merit the time spent on JA delay though, karbuncle is right and its not worth it.

If a single wind took our pet to 40 % (25gear+15 spell that most people sit at) I would deem it worthy
If a single fire added the same atk to our pet that a bard can add to us (100ish) I would deem it worthy

Adding +20 atk at 90 is paltry and insignificant 99% of the time.

[Gael]

lol i like how ppl changes the value when they need to argue on something :
- 1 wind is 15% not 10% of haste (16.5 % if the optic fiber affect it)
- mediocre att ? you said +20 att... i wonder from where you got this value. You should usually have at last 2 att attachments, let say tension spring 1 and 2, even w/o fire maneuver you have more that +20 att (should be around 50 actually, w/o fire maneuver), with 1 fire up and this 2 attachements, you kinda have the same att boost that a brd can give you with his best minuet (assuming 5/5 merit on minuet and assuming a +3 instrument), and if the optic fiber affect it, the boost is a bit better if you compare it to Valor minuet V
- mediocre acc ? what are you doing with accuracy attachments in abyssea ? even for the rng automaton you dont need them. You should always have a thunder maneuver up, that mean critical hit rate +5%, DA +10% (5.5 and 11% if the optic fiber affect them)
Outside abyssea the accuracy boost (assuming you need accuracy) is really big, look the bonus of the Target Marker alone...


And stop to stay that we lost 10% of our DPS, it's wrong. Most of time we do the maneuvers between 2 fight, during the time we run to a mob, etc.

The problem in this topic is that you underestimate the gain FULL TIME for your automaton, and you overestimate the lost on this 0-6 sec per minute.

[Karbuncle]

lol i like how ppl changes the value when they need to argue on something :

Giving him the benefit of the doubt he likely forgot the numbers like i do when it comes to that attachment.

- 1 wind is 15% not 10% of haste (16.5 % if the optic fiber affect it)

My problem is, Its like casting haste on a Full AF1 WAR using Axe and skilling it up from 250 on IT mobs. Yah he's attacking 15% faster but he's hitting for 1/3rd of the damage anyone else is hitting for, and they're attack 2x as fast still.

My problem isn't that attachments are underpowered, Its that they don't last long enough to keep it worthwhile to use them during combat, as they were intended. As you even say yourself below, and as the guy above me said, most PUPs dont bother using Maneuvers in combat, Only when Idle, why? Because its not worth their DPS hit.

My OP suggestion would do nothing but help this. and the suggestion to Lock maneuvers would as well.

- mediocre att ? you said +20 att... i wonder from where you got this value. You should usually have at last 2 att
attachments,

I usually go for Inhibitor, Tension Spring II and Attuner (As on stronger mobs i think removing % of their Defense is > Tension Springs bonus), and that leaves 1 fire spot left, I sometimes throw on Flame-Holder.

-mediocre acc ? what are you doing with accuracy attachments in abyssea ? even for the rng automaton you dont need them. You should always have a thunder maneuver up, that mean critical hit rate +5%, DA +10% (5.5 and 11% if the optic fiber affect them)

I was actually sorely disappointed at the power of the Critical hit Attachment, 3/3 Man's gives i think +6%? But Coiler is nice, however neither of those help you if you're using RNG or BLM frame (since the RNG frames ranged attacks can't crit, But they're fixing this soon i hope).

and from what i hear most PUPs use RNG frame for best DD.

Outside abyssea the accuracy boost (assuming you need accuracy) is really big, look the bonus of the Target Marker alone...

I almost always put on target marker lol>_>, depending on the frame.

And stop to stay that we lost 10% of our DPS, it's wrong. Most of time we do the maneuvers between 2 fight, during the time we run to a mob, etc.

Its not wrong, I'm completely right in my assumption that using Maneuvers during combat does remove 10% of your DPS. Because it adds 6sec per 60 on your delay.

if you use them outside of combat (which i actually mentioned) Its nil and will not effect your DD of course.

The problem in this topic is that you underestimate the gain FULL TIME for your automaton, and you overestimate the lost on this 0-6 sec per minute.

I don't underestimate anything, You're numbers are nice and you make it seem like the Automaton is getting some huge boost. But lets face the reality for a second, our Automaton is a great asset, but Ever seen a Vereth PUP with Haste/March? Or maybe just Marches? 10% more damage from him would absolutely wreck any benefit your auto gets from a Maneuver.

Using them before battle, nothing is lost and thats not the discussion though. The problem isn't Soloing in low haste situations, Its in party situations where you usually chain-pull mobs and there is no wait between fights to maneuver up. These situations if you want maneuvers it costs you.

Yes. There are situations where you work around this, like using maneuvers before fights. but that gives you a whooping 40 seconds of 3/3 Maneuver once you've activated all three. Which is probably enough for 1~2 fights, but seeing as you have downtime between fights it's likely only enough for 1.

This is why, and I guess my original point is being lost, I was asking for Maneuvers to be extended, or like someone suggested, a JA To lock a certain set of Maneuvers in for a specific time.

Not asking for a nerf, Just an improvement to a system.

[Gael]

Giving him the benefit of the doubt he likely forgot the numbers like i do when it comes to that attachment.

Yes and no because the main point is about the lost we have when we use maneuvers and the gain for the automaton.
(actually this sentense was more for the "20 att" which pop from idk where... when i read it, it was like a bad faith for me)

My problem is, Its like casting haste on a Full AF1 WAR using Axe and skilling it up from 250 on IT mobs. Yah he's attacking 15% faster but he's hitting for 1/3rd of the damage anyone else is hitting for, and they're attack 2x as fast still.

This sound strange for me so right after i read your answer, i went in abyssea Grauberg to see if i had the same thing. On my normal melee set (click on here to see it), with VV, RR and apoc (+cruor buff), i killed 10 peak pugil. My dmg on normal hit was between 89 and 148, my critical hit was between 230 and 359 dmg (outside a set effect)

w/o maneuver, my automaton did between 85 and 154. 189 and 380 for critical hits.

Same test with the rng automaton, 10 fish, same atmas and w/o maneuver : 99-186 for normal hits, and 237-319 for critical hit (every thing outside the bonus added by armor shatterer)

Ok the test was small, but it was enough to see that the dmg is not gimped like you said, it seems pretty close to my damages

My problem isn't that attachments are underpowered, Its that they don't last long enough to keep it worthwhile to use them during combat, as they were intended. As you even say yourself below, and as the guy above me said, most PUPs dont bother using Maneuvers in combat, Only when Idle, why? Because its not worth their DPS hit.

2-3 ppl here who doesnt use maneuvers and you already talk for "most pup" lol. You know in my server, 90% of time i see a pup in ally, he doesnt have a maton to fight with him (imo because the job was leveled in abyssea and the skills are very low), that not means its the good way to play the job

Again when i read you, i feel like if you you compare your full DPS instead to compare the gain/lost during the few seconds you use a maneuver. Did you try to parse yourself to see the difference even only 1h of each way ?

Anyway i read somewhere that SE will increase the boost given by attachements so i just hope that it will be enough to convince all the players who think like that.

I usually go for Inhibitor, Tension Spring II and Attuner (As on stronger mobs i think removing % of their Defense is > Tension Springs bonus), and that leaves 1 fire spot left, I sometimes throw on Flame-Holder.

Inhibitor ? that a strange choice, the gain (in any situation) of this attachment is not really good, actually it should kill your DPS a lot (TS 2, attuner and Flame-Holder are better options imo)

I was actually sorely disappointed at the power of the Critical hit Attachment, 3/3 Man's gives i think +6%? But Coiler is nice, however neither of those help you if you're using RNG or BLM frame (since the RNG frames ranged attacks can't crit, But they're fixing this soon i hope).

and from what i hear most PUPs use RNG frame for best DD.

ya this attachement sucks suck a bit imo (3/3 = 9% btw) but its a little boost (i mean when you equiped all offenssive attachements, and when you still have some empty room)

It's true about the fact that ranged att cant crit (for now at least) but the melee att can. And again after you equiped all offenssive attachement, you should have a room for him lol, even if its a small boost it increase your overall DPS at the end.

And it's not true, most pup doesnt use the rng automaton to DD, most should use it lol.
The problem in abyssea is that mobs move often and die very fast. The rng automaton is nice when he can tp and when the mob doesnt move. so unless you fight a worm or something which doesnt move, the rng (which is the best frame to DD, i agree with you) is not the best option.

I almost always put on target marker lol>_>, depending on the frame.

inside abyssea lol ? you tried to see his accuracy w/o it ? (assuming the skill of your maton are capped)

Its not wrong, I'm completely right in my assumption that using Maneuvers during combat does remove 10% of your DPS. Because it adds 6sec per 60 on your delay.

if you use them outside of combat (which i actually mentioned) Its nil and will not effect your DD of course.

No its wrong cause based on the fact that you will fight a mob 60 sec w/o interruption, w/o use any ja (like diploy, berserk, warcry, agressor, ws, ...), assuming you ONLY use ja during a fight and not between.
The problem (which is imo the main problem here) is that you are too focus on the theory.

I don't underestimate anything, You're numbers are nice and you make it seem like the Automaton is getting some huge boost. But lets face the reality for a second, our Automaton is a great asset, but Ever seen a Vereth PUP with Haste/March? Or maybe just Marches? 10% more damage from him would absolutely wreck any benefit your auto gets from a Maneuver.

Yes. There are situations where you work around this, like using maneuvers before fights. but that gives you a whooping 40 seconds of 3/3 Maneuver once you've activated all three. Which is probably enough for 1~2 fights, but seeing as you have downtime between fights it's likely only enough for 1.

This is why, and I guess my original point is being lost, I was asking for Maneuvers to be extended, or like someone suggested, a JA To lock a certain set of Maneuvers in for a specific time.

yes you didnt understand. You are saying that there is almost no gain from maneuvers so no reason to use them. I'm saying with official numbers, that the lost you have in your DPS when you use a maneuver is compensate. The proof on it is the perception that ppl have about the gain for the automaton : "Adding +20", "mediocre atk", "some DA", "he's hitting for 1/3rd".

Again i'm not saying that the attachements are OMFG but it's far away of the perception you have.

Yes i saw a pup with vere. I am this pup lol, and i had haste (march is very rare >_<), but again you are talking in theory. Mobs die fast enough to let you the time to cast maneuvers w/o problem, unless you wait the full duration to recast them ? idk for you but i kinda use a maneuver every ~12 sec in pt, the mob doesnt stay alive enough time lol

In a real pt situation you cast maybe 1 maneuver during a fight but that all, at least at lev 90.


(btw i know we are both camping on our positions but i like this kind of debate, w/o insult, stress, ... long time i didnt see something like that :P)

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btw i heard something strange today which join the topic : Someone said me that if you use a ja between 2 punch (on the same att round i mean), you dont have the 2 sec delay, anyone know something on this ?

[Karbuncle]

Yes and no because the main point is about the lost we have when we use maneuvers and the gain for the automaton.
(actually this sentense was more for the "20 att" which pop from idk where... when i read it, it was like a bad faith for me)

Yah, I can agree.

This sound strange for me so right after i read your answer, i went in abyssea Grauberg to see if i had the same thing. On my normal melee set (click on here to see it), with VV, RR and apoc (+cruor buff), i killed 10 peak pugil. My dmg on normal hit was between 89 and 148, my critical hit was between 230 and 359 dmg (outside a set effect)

w/o maneuver, my automaton did between 85 and 154. 189 and 380 for critical hits.

You were attacking faster yah? But i did specify "in non-haste solo situations its less of a problem" :X This sounds like a Non-hasted Solo-Situation.

Same test with the rng automaton, 10 fish, same atmas and w/o maneuver : 99-186 for normal hits, and 237-319 for critical hit (every thing outside the bonus added by armor shatterer)

Ok the test was small, but it was enough to see that the dmg is not gimped like you said, it seems pretty close to my damages

I think hit for hit yah, But you were likely attacking much quicker and your WS's will do much more damage than his. over time You > Puppet by a long shot. probably more than double. Which just gets worse the most haste you have.

But i see more or less the point here.

Again when i read you, i feel like if you you compare your full DPS instead to compare the gain/lost during the few seconds you use a maneuver. Did you try to parse yourself to see the difference even on only 1h of each way ?

10% is going to remain 10% no matter what though... I don't think I'm reading this right, But rather its a 1 minute parse or a 1 day parse, 6 seconds per 60 seconds will remain that :X regardless of length.

This is assuming you're using them in combat... Of course if you're not its more a nil problem.

Anyway i read somewhere that SE will increase the boost given by attachements so i just hope that it will be enough to convince all the players which think like that.

I wouldn't mind a boost to Attachments too.

Inhibitor ? that a strange choice, the gain (in any situation) of this attachment is not really good, actually it should kill your DPS a lot (TS 2, attuner and Flame-Holder)

Inhibitor is the Store TP/SKillchaining one yes? Always figured it was one of the better ones based on the TP Gain, thought it was a bit better than 6% Attack (Since i don't know if theres any info at all on an Automatons Base attack, i Can assume ~350 if combat skill works like ours) so 6% with 1 Fire man' up would be about +21 Attack... Suppose i could be doing i wrong. >_>

ya this attachement sucks suck a bit imo (3/3 = 9% btw) but its a little boost (i mean when you equiped all offenssive attachements, and when you still have some empty room)

I have a hard time evening out my attachments, They should increase the Elemental slot size for some..

inside abyssea lol ? you tried to see his accuracy w/o it ? (assuming the skill of your maton are capped)

No. Not inside abyssea. Obviously. That would be retarded and i cant even believe you yourself believe that. I don't think Abyssea is a good base line for anything, as it skews so much.

No its wrong cause based on the fact that you will fight a mob 60 sec w/o interruption, w/o use any ja (like diploy, berserk, warcry, agressor, ws, ...), assuming you ONLY use ja during a fight and not between.
The problem (which is imo the main problem here) is that you are too focus on the theory.

Im not seeing much change from Theory and Practice. 6 seconds is 6 seconds. The Delay is given when you activate the JA, If you want to say the fight lasts 30 seconds? You keep all 3 Maneuvers up you're now losing 6 seconds per 30, which is even worse.

I'm speaking on averages, Its generally the best way. If you're in combat using maneuvers, no matter how long a fight is, On average, if you keep Maneuvers up 3/3 at all times, You lose 6 seconds of Possible attack rounds.

Of course there are some circumstances, I.E Using it before Combat, Using them Inbetween Switching Targets, etc, where this is not applicable.

yes you didnt understand. You are saying that there is almost no gain from maneuvers so no reason to use it.

No im not, well, If it came off that way sorry i was unclear. I'm saying the Benefit you gain is generally not worth what you would lose in your DPS. which even now i see might be wrong. but im still not entirely convinced..

I also said this is less and less apparent in solo/low haste situations, and becomes a much bigger problem if you're receiving haste/marches.

and also admitted multiple times its not a problem if you use them outside of battle, but also pointed out thats hard to do in some heavy-pulling scenarios, or say, an NM fight, or long battles.

I'm saying with official numbers, that the lost you have in your DPS when you use a maneuver is compensate. The proof on it is the perception that ppl have about the gain for the automaton : "Adding +20", "mediocre atk", "some DA", "he's hitting for 1/3rd".

Exaggerations, I know, Coulda sworn i said somewhere it was an Exaggeration, I must have been thinking of another post... But the "+20" and "some DA" weren't my words.

In their defense though, +20 is kinda mediocre attack boost in the grand scheme of things. But +~50 like it does add with TS I/II is not that bad.

But +20 Attack is apparenty > Store TP from Inhibitor, so its better than that.

Again i'm not saying that the attachements are OMFG but it's far away of the perception you have.

You could be right, In fact if you are I have no qualms admitting it, If you wanted to run the parse for me you can.. I have a hard time parsing things because i can never get them to work...

Yes i saw a pup with vere. I am this pup lol, and i had haste (march is very rare >_<), but again you are talking in theory. Mobs die fast enough to let you the time to cast maneuvers w/o problem,

You keep all 3 Maneuvers active full time in an Exp party situation while seemlessly attacking enemies o.o? You are pretty good if thats the case.

But a problem might arise if you're fighting an NM, no? Ones like ... Deelgeed, or Itzpop, stuff like those that generally last longer than the ~40 seconds your Maneuvers remain up after setting all 3.

unless you wait the full duration to recast them ? idk for you but i kinda use a maneuver every ~12 sec in pt, the mob doesnt stay alive enough time lol

Usually i recast them before they wear off yes, So i suppose the idea of using a Maneuver every seconds would work. Would that not eventually run risk of Overload however? if i recall overload decays rather slowly, using 1 maneuver in theory every ~36 sames (Same element i mean) would run the risk of overload after about 5 minutes or so yah?

btw i heard something strange today which join the topic : Someone said me that if we use a ja between 2 punch (on the same att round i mean), you dont have the 2 sec delay, anyone know something on this ?

Newp :X, You still gain that 2 Seconds. basically using a JA adds 120 delay to your next attack round, sometimes it nigh unnoticeable, but its there.

You know, You're rather intelligent in your words and i like how you almost don't result to insults. I can see you love the pup job, and i can see you know your stuff.

I ask you this, Instead of the OP idea, How would you feel about the "Locking" Ability to keep a set of Maneuvers up for a certain duration?

[Gael]

lol the answers (mine include) start to be very long, i will try to do a bit shorter.

First, you have the to know that in my language "you" is the same word for "Karbuncle" or "Karbuncle + others", so dont worry if dont only use your words xD


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yes i attacked faster than my automaton (because of my gear and because i didnt use maneuver) but my point is still here with or without haste : let say you do 1 more attack (6 puch if you TA both) during the 2 sec. How many more att you think that your maton will do with +15% of haste during 60 sec ?
Even if you used 3 maneuvers during the same fight -you never do it- the gain from your DPS is still better that dont use maneuvers

I will try to give you a parse, but to be honest with you, i'm capped on exp/merit so i will probably wait the next level increase which is in something like 2-3 weeks ?

About the inhibitor, yes it's the one which help you to do a skillchain with your maton, my problem is that it will wait to use his TP and at the end it gimp your DPS

Your right about the fact that it's not the same thing on NMs (any NM), but usually try to not melee to limite the tp gain (and i use the blm auto).

About the overload, it's fine cause i dont spam the same element (and i never use the same element when i'm 3/3, usualy thunder - wind - fire) and because i use all the items which prevent it (collar, af 1 hands and body)


About the rumor, i'm happy it wasnt true, it's hard to focus all the time on the moment to use a ja lol.


Last thing until my break on this topic for few weeks (until the level increase) is about your idea : i love it but with the current system (which erase the maneuvers with some attachements) i'm not sure about the risk to lock the maneuvers xD
But if SE remove that stupid idea which erase maneuvers i will vote for you for sure

[Dfoley]

lol i like how ppl changes the value when they need to argue on something :
- 1 wind is 15% not 10% of haste (16.5 % if the optic fiber affect it)
- mediocre att ? you said +20 att... i wonder from where you got this value. You should usually have at last 2 att attachments, let say tension spring 1 and 2, even w/o fire maneuver you have more that +20 att (should be around 50 actually, w/o fire maneuver), with 1 fire up and this 2 attachements, you kinda have the same att boost that a brd can give you with his best minuet (assuming 5/5 merit on minuet and assuming a +3 instrument), and if the optic fiber affect it, the boost is a bit better if you compare it to Valor minuet V
- mediocre acc ? what are you doing with accuracy attachments in abyssea ? even for the rng automaton you dont need them. You should always have a thunder maneuver up, that mean critical hit rate +5%, DA +10% (5.5 and 11% if the optic fiber affect them)
Outside abyssea the accuracy boost (assuming you need accuracy) is really big, look the bonus of the Target Marker alone...

Actually gael my post was 100% right and i didnt forget any numbers at all.

1 wind adds 10% haste.

0 wind is 5%, 1 wind is 15%, thus 10% haste was added....

The rest holds true but if even the most obvious statement like that was to complicated for you, there is no need to explain the rest.

[Dfoley]

let say you do 1 more attack (6 puch if you TA both) during the 2 sec. How many more att you think that your maton will do with +15% of haste during 60 sec ?
Even if you used 3 maneuvers during the same fight -you never do it- the gain from your DPS is still better that dont use maneuvers

Stop being lazy and theoretical.

SS base dly is 400 - 9 swings / min
With Coiler + Apoc atma - Roughly 11 swings / min
Add in turbo charger - 0 wind maneuvers (5% haste) - up to 12 swings per min
Add in a single wind maneuver - up to 14 swings per min


Now for the master:
Assuming apoc/gh/rr and sub war
DA = 20%
TA = 18%
spell haste = yes
Weapon = verethragna

You are looking at roughly 1 attack round every 4 seconds. Thus using 3 maneuvers in a 60 seconds period will cost you 1.5 attack rounds (8 swings on average)



Overall net:
Pet gains 10% haste (2 more swings per min) you lose 8 swings per minute. The gain is not worth the time spent because the master hits harder, has better ws's, and better dmg per hit.


Dont make stuff up and not back it up.