Nerf SMN

[Zeargi]

My problem isn't so much with smn being strong while using conduit. It is more the fact the defacto solution to just about any hard content quickly becomes throw a lot of smns with conduit and/or flow to just burn things down from 100 to 0 in short order.

And that's part of what people don't see. This isn't a SMN problem in and of itself alone; this strategy has been used a number of times before. One SMN can't floor these things, it takes an entire group plus outside aid from COR and GEO. So to curb this type of play style from lazy players, this is a dev situation which need to be on a more creative level. Has much as I'd hate to see it done: The likely fix is to rebuke this style by forcing certain stages or retributive strikes. The first fix is much like the Pandemonium Warden, and once certain thresholds are hit (likely within a certain time) the enemy despawns and reappears with the allies it should have. The second fix is basically if an enemy is killed far to fast that it gives a OHKO move that ends the fight. The second is far more harsh, but would also punish EVERYONE has a whole. Ultimately it's a time sensitive matter, and with most end game things already having a displayed clock, I feel that it shouldn't be too difficult to implement. Those are just my thoughts, but I'm sure there could be more ideas and tweaks to make a best solution that would benefit the game and community as a whole.

[Urmom]

And that's part of what people don't see. This isn't a SMN problem in and of itself alone; this strategy has been used a number of times before. One SMN can't floor these things, it takes an entire group plus outside aid from COR and GEO. .

Not really. Smns are literally soloing T3 reisin. T4s are often with a party or less but yes it often includes a geo and sometimes run with the rest being smns. And that's where the huge advantage comes from. The lower numbers needed to do this means less hp which is what allow these zergs to even happen. Just one more problem caused by the extreme HP scaling

[Rwolf]

To be honest, there are a least a handful of jobs soloing Reisenjima T3. Search for T3 solo videos. I've seen BLU and SCH soloing them off the top of my head. Haven't seen SMN but I don't discount it. Without being super charged by a GEO and COR, I don't see it capable of melting a T3 and avoiding mechanics altogether solo.

[Urmom]

Thought only a couple of the T3s have been done. Like when looking for vids as suggested all I see Neak solo by sch and a Yakshi solo by smn who also solod Onychophora (neither of which are "super charged" vids). And I've heard tell of blu doing Neak but haven't seen it but enough people say they do it so I'll buy it

How exactly do you use a geo and still solo? Bubbles wear on pop don't they? Not sure about Neak but the idea on Yakshi is mostly to kill fast enough your odds of getting hit by something fight ending go decently down and for Maju to go slow and steady at never let it get enough tp to go glow eyes

Regardless of other jobs doing wasn't really the point I was countering. I was countering this idea that you need an army of them or something when really you don't need

[Hawklaser]

Regardless of other jobs doing wasn't really the point I was countering. I was countering this idea that you need an army of them or something when really you don't need

While don't need an army of them to do it, it is still telling that they are one of the first things people try for harder content to get past it easily.

After all, how often do you hear something is hard so lets throw more of generic DDs at it? Such as thf, drg, non-Kclub drks. It is almost always Smn that is sought. Blm, Rng, and Sam are the other main ones sought over the game's lifespan, thanks to the raw amount of burst they can do compared to others.

[Rwolf]

I see what you're saying but I also didn't want anyone to assume SMN is this OP job that's the only one soloing T3. I don't fully agree with nerfing SMN but I'm listening intently to concerns regarding it and find it has some validity.

The only thing I've seen players bring up is nerfing SMN because of Astral Conduit's DPS. Something like soloing a T3 you're not going to do solo with AC. It'll knock a chunk of health off but you're not melting one and certainly not avoiding mechanics. I brought up GEO and COR because that's where the spike comes from on higher content. Pet buffs and bubbles make a huge difference in damage and besides food and gear there's not much else to buff pets. So if someone is looking at what SMN is doing in a group, they can't apply that damage to solo. Not just speed but you're not doing near as much per Blood Pact without support.

Some BLU vs. Neak solo videos:
https://youtu.be/GL2ltSUCxeU

[Urmom]

Problem is AC is the problem. Not many have too much of a concern with there being jobs that can deal decent dmg from a distance (unless that job is bst for some reason) it's when they start outdps others at the same time with less other jobs needed if only for a short time. This whole thread wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a combination of the new bp dmgs during AC. So why not adjust AC if it's the clear problem?

As far as cor/geo... eh nobody is going to easy mode full dmg solo. It's a question of how much support is needed. Melee is undeniably always been the most support intensive to the point it's why prebuffing became a thing but traditionally offered the highest potential dps. With rng/mage strats being a bit less support (pretty much just a tank and support/healer for tank) and "safer" but a tad less dps (though not as much since the MB update). And strats really just needing the pet jobs but can be helpful to have 1 cor 1 geo and for certain zergs a run.

Could only find this vid but even with some mistakes and taking breaks to siphon tp for safety (makes it slower but less likely something random happens) still managed to go 67-5% on AC. If actually did prebuff with a cor, didn't make a couple of small errors and played the luck roulette by not using Cait Sith could probably do a bigger chunk possibly all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF34wSEiczU&t

[Shiyo]

We have had RUNs in dd gear put up substantial parses in t4 conduits (upwards of 60% of a smn) I have no doubts a <1 minute schah is possible with melee DDs, it would just involve prebuff bards and the melee pouncing at pop.

Melee actually are in danger of dying. Ranged classes that completely bypass all boss mechanics shouldn't deal anywhere near the damage of a melee.

Fixing this problem is such an easy thing. I quit this game for 7 months and come back and something like this has been allowed to run rampant for SEVEN months? I'm honestly disgusted - how can developers care so little about their game they'd allow a class to literally GAME SHARK their and completely destroy all of it's difficulty?

Remove AC from the game until it's redesigned. SMN is 100% balanced and fine outside of AC.

[Frodnon]

Melee actually are in danger of dying. Ranged classes that completely bypass all boss mechanics shouldn't deal anywhere near the damage of a melee.

Conduit burns aren't some magic 100% 'i win' buttons, even with the best setup. Schah can AOE and kill a pet or get a debuff off and stop a pet, killing DPS and costing the run. Kouryu can terrorize avatar or player and cost the run. A SMN can, sometimes, recover from that and resummon in time, but it costs usually 4-5 seconds of a 30 second ability.

Putting the blame solely on AC is pretty poor, and ignores all the other balancing issues that contribute to it.

HP scaling mechanics contribute to small party zergs over other setups. If the mob's HP were static, Setups involving melee DD would arguably be much more viable due to how much damage a superbuffed party of DD can put out in 1, 2, or 5 minutes, opposed to the frontloaded 30s of conduit followed by the rapidly falling DPS of post conduit SMN.

Mobs often lack hard stop mechanics. omen caturae, Tumult Curator and oncycophora are good examples of mobs that do have them, Schah is a poor example but does have it. Hard stop abilities like Invincible/Perfect Dodge, HP% Gimmicks like Respawning Kouryu at 50%, Multiple Targets of TC or Schah's DT- while 2+ pets are out All Mitigate a straight zerg. Schah just unfortunately has his be Timer based insted of HP, giving enough of a window to take down.

Odyllic Subterfuge helps to mitigate Debuffs to an extent.
GEO indi-frailty scales damage on pacts greatly.
DA fTP mechanics of Volt Strike gives Nirvana a 30% damage increase (40% total) over the 2nd highest competitor, Was+1 at 9%

[Zeargi]

Melee actually are in danger of dying. Ranged classes that completely bypass all boss mechanics shouldn't deal anywhere near the damage of a melee.

You do realize that all avatars have to be in Melee range to use their Physical Blood Pacts, right? Avatars have substantially less HP than players and other pets outside of Wyverns. They are still susceptible to all status debuffs including Amnesia, ATT/MACC/ACC/DEF/etc Down with them having a slightly higher resistance to elemental debuffs that are their elements or the ones they're strong versus (E.I. Leviathan and Ifrit are slightly less likely to get Amnesia) So, meaning that if an Avatar dies or is inflicted with something that prevents their actions like stun/terror/amnesia/petrify/etc then AC basically becomes useless because it only lasts for 30s.

Again, this isn't solely a SMN problem. Summoner burns are nothing new. I've said it before: The old Promy Fight, Those were SMN burned. Waking the Beast: Alliance of solely SMNs. The problems is that the game has shifted so hard to punish melee fighting with extreme AoEs and spamming of things like Full Clears of Debuffs. To add on top of all this, most enemies HP Skyrocket to unGodly amounts with more people that you bring. The problem is that this MMO punishes you for playing with other people. Nerfing SMN isn't what needs to happen. the Nerfing that should be looked at is the redesigning of the MOBS themselves.