Woe to ye Summoner! (Mostly not a Cait Sith, Atomos rant thread)

[Babekeke]

This obviously completely went over your head so let me explain it out word for word. Obviously, +70 stats is better than 30 MP I wouldn't dream of arguing against that. I'm arguing about having my ammo slot locked out when all of the other pet jobs, bar-PUP, have their pet's stat increases are derived from the ilvl of the item in their main hand while still getting stats of their own from the item in their main hand. Hopefully, those words were simple enough for you to understand.

Ummm.... PUP's ranged/ammo slot has always been locked out by the Animator....

And BST jug pet stat increase sucks, from everything I've heard. Though they were much better pre-ilvl than avatars.

[Mokeil]

I'm arguing about having my ammo slot locked out when all of the other pet jobs, bar-PUP, have their pet's stat increases are derived from the ilvl of the item in their main hand while still getting stats of their own from the item in their main hand.

There are only four pet jobs in the game. That means only half of them use the stats of the main weapon to derive their pet's stats. While technically true, saying "all of the other pet jobs" in this case is a bit disingenuous. Also, when looked at from the other side of the fence, that means half of the pet jobs out there are free to choose any weapon they want! I know there are a lot of BSTs who wish they could still make use of their -pdt axes in Adoulin areas...

When you get down to it, no matter which slot is chosen to be the one where the Must Have Pet Boosting Item (MHBPI) goes, it means options are being limited in some way. I would much rather see a debate about whether a single MHPBI is even the right way to go for SMN. Arguing over which slot it goes into just seems silly.


Having already spoken about the sachets, I'd like to take a second to address your other points, as well. I do not feel that these things are major problems facing today's SMN. While they are things that could stand to be looked at, I would put these at the very bottom end of what needs fixing.

1. Perpetuation Cost
2. Satchets
3. To Leave Out or Not to Leave Out the Avatar, that is the question
4. Odin and Alexander

Points 1 and 3 are closely related. Once upon a time, I'd have said that perpetuation costs need to be done away with. But now that there's enough gear out there to completely minimize - indeed, all but eliminate - it? It's not really a big deal anymore. Likewise, getting to the point where you can just leave an avatar out now is fairly easy. There are plenty of options out there for us to deal with perp costs now. It can even be done with naught but two pieces of +2 empyrean and a magian trial staff. With some actual work, you can get a really impressive set going. (If I can get lucky with the Augment Roulette on a Hagondes coat, my -perp/refresh set will give me a passive +7 auto-refresh while I have an avatar out. That is insane compared to where we were pre-Abyssea!)

With this in mind, I can only view perp costs as inconsequential in the grand scheme of things that plague SMN. Would it be nice if it went away so we could focus on other things instead? Sure. But neither am I going feel that its continued existence is what's holding SMN back.

As for Odin and Alexander... These guys could use some tweaking, but quite honestly? Perfect Defense was ridiculously powerful - to the point where no one would do anything without it. The fact that it was seen as necessary for certain events was just bad game design on the parts of the events. On the other hand, the fact that it's all that got SMN invited to those events is a clear indication that there is bad game design on the part of SMN. Hiding behind Perfect Defense just helped us lose track of where our real problems are, is all.

[Annalise]

This obviously completely went over your head so let me explain it out word for word. Obviously, +70 stats is better than 30 MP I wouldn't dream of arguing against that. I'm arguing about having my ammo slot locked out when all of the other pet jobs, bar-PUP, have their pet's stat increases are derived from the ilvl of the item in their main hand while still getting stats of their own from the item in their main hand. Hopefully, those words were simple enough for you to understand.

I'd rather lock the ammo slot than the weapon slot (as that is what would be locked if people are comparing it to DRG, and your mention of main hand weapon). To me, it would be annoying to have to have Balsam Staff on to have the best avatar at any given moment. Using a magian perpetuation staff would gimp your avatar pretty bad if it is auto-attacking. The ammo slot has always been pretty lackluster for summoner. Slight pet MAB or a bit of MP. This is what Edyth is referring to. By locking the ammo slot, SMN is not losing much.

Other pet jobs typically full time their weapons. How often do you see a DRG, PUP or BST changing around their weapon? They lose TP. They don't. SMN changes weapons (at least they should) fairly often. Why would you want to lock a slot that is constantly changed around? How often did you change ammo on SMN before the sash?

[FaeQueenCory]

Fixed.
And this is why I would prefer Uffrat with -perp on it. You can use Uffrat for Magic BPs and for Avatar Perp, Soulscourge for Melee BPs, and Yaskomo's for BP Ward enfeebs. Now throw away 8 staves for plenty of inv space. You can cap BP timer in 3-4 pieces of Relic +2.



Sorry, I just said for idling. Not idling with avatar out. If my avatar is out, I'm not idling, as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to have misunderstood my statement. I meant that the magian staves will always be better than anything Uffrat any other staff to date to be equipped 99% of the time, because you not only halve your perp cost, but you reduce your BP timer to almost the cap (-12, cap is 15) in ONE SLOT.
Sure you need 7 staves (we are ignoring carbuncle... because... screw that guy.) to get that for every avatar....
But you're gonna be using that same amount of inventory space to get the -12 BP timer you lost from not using the magian stave.
That was my "one" statement that you fixed but didn't really because I was referring to the equipment slot and not the inventory slot.

Of course I'm not full-time empy. If you're full-time anything on SMN you're probably playing the job wrong. Although how the Relic +2 is better than the Empy +2, is beyond me. The relic is a much better macro piece for blood pacts than it is for full-timing. That Summoning Magic +/Recast - isn't doing anything for you if your avatar is just auto-attacking and after that long winded speech about how Summoning Magic + gear is

it sure is an interesting analogy to make.

To Quote Liz Lemon: Whatthewhat?!

I see what you tried to do there.... but no. Just... no.

Edyth has already explained it to you using maths.... but I'mma make this simple:

Relic+2:

• slightly less MP than empy+2 (only a Galka would care about how little it is)
• +15 skill (which = +7ish acc, which.... is how your avatar hits stuff)
• -4 BP timer (with a magian stave, you're 1 over cap... and no need for more inventory clog.)
• the enhances acc is the same.

Empy+2:

• slightly more MP than relic+2 (only a Galka would care about how little it is)
• half remaining perp (not whole perp. the left over AFTER -perp effects... which if you have empy+2 body and feet... that's -7/15... and an evoker ring is -8/15 meaning all you need now is 6. oh look. magian staves again.)
• enhances mana cede (do you ever use this? it's a nifty little ability... but you can't tell me that the cost of 100mp to make a BP slightly better is worth it? they already cost so much anyways! But if you actually DO use this... macro it.)
• the enhances acc is the same.

The ONLY argument that can be made for using the empy+2 hands if you have the relic hands...
Blood Boon proc happens more with 5/5 than 4/5.
That's it.
And even then... the proc rates are so low that 4/5 is basically the same as 5/5.
Everything else offered by the empy hands is either also offered from the relic (MP; enhances acc), functionally useless in today's game (mana cede; half remaining perp depending on the day/weather) or a very marginal situational thing (blood boon)...
And one of those things the relic does BETTER (enhancing acc).

I'd rather lock the ammo slot than the weapon slot (as that is what would be locked if people are comparing it to DRG, and your mention of main hand weapon). To me, it would be annoying to have to have Balsam Staff on to have the best avatar at any given moment. Using a magian perpetuation staff would gimp your avatar pretty bad if it is auto-attacking. The ammo slot has always been pretty lackluster for summoner. Slight pet MAB or a bit of MP. This is what Edyth is referring to. By locking the ammo slot, SMN is not losing much.

Other pet jobs typically full time their weapons. How often do you see a DRG, PUP or BST changing around their weapon? They lose TP. They don't. SMN changes weapons (at least they should) fairly often. Why would you want to lock a slot that is constantly changed around? How often did you change ammo on SMN before the sash?

Um... before uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam staves... you'd pop in that pet MAB ammo during a magic BP...
And it was for something pathetic: +1...
An Esper stone.
But since MAB has diminishing returns... and uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam give your Avatar between 60 and 120 MAB...
that +1 is gonna be maybe 1 dmg... maybe. (that's a hyperbole... but only slightly.)
But now?
Ha. No. Never.

Though to be fair... Galka and Elvaan smns felt the hurt from the loss of that +45MP we were keeping up there... But we kinda got over it with the +55 more we got from the new cape. (+100-45=+55 more)

[Annalise]

Um... before uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam staves... you'd pop in that pet MAB ammo during a magic BP...
And it was for something pathetic: +1...
An Esper stone.
But since MAB has diminishing returns... and uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam give your Avatar between 60 and 120 MAB...
that +1 is gonna be maybe 1 dmg... maybe. (that's a hyperbole... but only slightly.)
But now?
Ha. No. Never.

Though to be fair... Galka and Elvaan smns felt the hurt from the loss of that +45MP we were keeping up there... But we kinda got over it with the +55 more we got from the new cape. (+100-45=+55 more)

And what would you macro in back after? +MP ammo? That's doing so much for you right after using a bloodpact and not having full MP. You could pretty much fulltime the Esper stone after your first bloodpact and unless you are back to full MP, there will really be no difference at all.

The ammo slot was pretty useless for SMN. Now it has much more use.

[FaeQueenCory]

And what would you macro in back after? +MP ammo? That's doing so much for you right after using a bloodpact and not having full MP. You could pretty much fulltime the Esper stone after your first bloodpact and unless you are back to full MP, there will really be no difference at all.

The ammo slot was pretty useless for SMN. Now it has much more use.

Well, for one... the esper stone was basically useless anyways. +1MAB? wooooooooo soooooo much more dmg. [/sarcasm]

And way to be racist!
lol
That's marginally a joke.... cause you are ignoring the problems that certain races have.
For a Galka or Elvaan smn... if you really felt the need to macro that esper stone (I did for a bit, then dropped it cause it's basically worthless). Macroing back in a +MP piece was really good.
Because... y'know... auto-refesh?
You have 45s to fill up that +45MP... and at +1mp/s (+3mp/tic)... You have that much "lost" back.
And that's just auto-refresh.
Not to mention elemental siphons... and whatever /mage you're using needs that MP too.

I'm not arguing that esper stone was good... cause it was shittier than shit.
I was just saying that there was something that some people lost.

And, as an Elvaan smn, I find that the trade off of 45MP is a big kick to the butt... BUT is TOTES worth the +7/14Lvs that the new sachets give.

Though what *I* lament is that it is the only thing they give.... while BST axes got all those pretty green numbers and +acc... and DRG polearms too.... PUP is the only one who didn't really loose much... but they lost a bit too with the new animators not having a hidden +XDEX stat to the PUP. (I think the best was +4DEX before? idr)

Considering that for PUP and SMN, these ammos are required... and waaaaay moreso than any DREMSs (Delve-Relic-Empyrean-Mythic-Skirmish+1) ever will be... cause... there's 4 of those per weapon...
It would have been a lot nicer to have something for the smn. +skill... +mp.... +eva... +pet acc... whatever!
Just... SOMETHING so that it doesn't feel like a dead slot.

[Annalise]

Well, for one... the esper stone was basically useless anyways. +1MAB? wooooooooo soooooo much more dmg. [/sarcasm]

And way to be racist!
lol
That's marginally a joke.... cause you are ignoring the problems that certain races have.
For a Galka or Elvaan smn... if you really felt the need to macro that esper stone (I did for a bit, then dropped it cause it's basically worthless). Macroing back in a +MP piece was really good.
Because... y'know... auto-refesh?
You have 45s to fill up that +45MP... and at +1mp/s (+3mp/tic)... You have that much "lost" back.
And that's just auto-refresh.
Not to mention elemental siphons... and whatever /mage you're using needs that MP too.

I'm not arguing that esper stone was good... cause it was shittier than shit.
I was just saying that there was something that some people lost.

And, as an Elvaan smn, I find that the trade off of 45MP is a big kick to the butt... BUT is TOTES worth the +7/14Lvs that the new sachets give.

Though what *I* lament is that it is the only thing they give.... while BST axes got all those pretty green numbers and +acc... and DRG polearms too.... PUP is the only one who didn't really loose much... but they lost a bit too with the new animators not having a hidden +XDEX stat to the PUP. (I think the best was +4DEX before? idr)

Considering that for PUP and SMN, these ammos are required... and waaaaay moreso than any DREMSs (Delve-Relic-Empyrean-Mythic-Skirmish+1) ever will be... cause... there's 4 of those per weapon...
It would have been a lot nicer to have something for the smn. +skill... +mp.... +eva... +pet acc... whatever!
Just... SOMETHING so that it doesn't feel like a dead slot.

I do understand that as a Hume, I have a boatload of MP and a lot of refresh on Summoner. As an Elvaan, with same gear/merits you will have 100 less MP than me. Which you could pretty much make up for eating food if you wanted it (because I don't eat food on Summoner). Elvaan also gets bigger converts than a Hume does FYI.

I am well aware of all of the refresh on SMN and siphon/convert. This is why max MP hardly matters anymore and why a +45 mp ammo won't break you. I can manage my MP for a long time on SMN spamming bloodpacts without any support (up to 9/tick MP solo with avatar out currently; 1 trait, 2 head, 1 earring, 1 legs, 3 refresh spell, and at times 1 hand). And if I have someone giving me refresh 2 or evoker's or ballad, it's just ridiculous MP.

My original counterargument, though, was about how the ammo slot (which you also agree is pretty lackluster for smn) is much better than locking the weapon slot. And you want something like +pet acc on it? It is already increasing that.