Nerf SMN

[Marada]

Pup is actually in a decent spot right now. One of the better tanks... at least vs 1 target. Fights with multiple mobs or weird hate it kind of fails as does things like doom

So you mean it can tank Ambu and a few other things, but other than that, it fails.......right? I think some Omen stuff it can tank, but I need to still build my gear to do that.

[Urmom]

So you mean it can tank Ambu and a few other things, but other than that, it fails.......right? I think some Omen stuff it can tank, but I need to still build my gear to do that.

Kind of depends on the month but generally speaking ambuscade is one of the worst things it can tank at. In terms of just durability and how much support it needs it's often better than other tanks. One of it's biggest flaws is it can't get hate on multiple targets nor has aoe hate moves which makes it basically usable at least as the sole tank for a lot of ambuscade or all the various mobs that spawn adds that aggro the master. But against a single boss it's pretty amazing. Also really heavy dots kind of hurt it since all that dt doesn't matter and you can't really cure it

[Afania]

we need to start boosting other jobs instead of nerfing everything.

If other jobs gets SMN level of efficiency and effectiveness then this game basically won't have any difficult content at all.

Currently here are the "high level" content in this game:
Kirin/WoC/T4
PW2
Master trial x3

Compare with the hardest content in 75(AV/PW), 2012(legion/NNI), 2013(pre-ilv delve). The skill and gear requirement in the highest endgame in 2017 was definitely one tier lower than the hardest content in previous years.......with SMN setup. The only exception being Shadowlord master trial, which can't be SMN zerged....yet. Everything else basically has no longevity since well geared SMN pt destroys everything quite easily, and relatively safe too.

We're at a point that most of the hardcore player are running out of goals, except making one pointless REMA after another. The fact that SMN makes hardest endgame content MUCH easier only hurt the game in the long run. And now people are asking every job to do what SMN can do.

Do you not care about challenging content? Or would you rather play an MMO that everyone sleep through every content on SMN? That's what FFXI is atm, and it's not fun. I really don't understand why people are anti nerf on this issue or even ask every job to be as OP as that. What's the point to work on your jobs and build gear sets, work on pt coordination if all you ever need is change job to SMN and spam BP then get win?

[Afania]

Here's the thing. The only SMN who can do the AC spam and kill the mob in 3 min on ??? level are literally The Best Geared and job pointed SMNs in the game. You can actually do the same thing with a geared and job pointed BLM too, does BLM need to be nerfed as well?

In terms of raw damage output, AC SMN >>>>>>Melees >>>> BLM.

[Teraniku]

In terms of raw damage output, AC SMN >>>>>>Melees >>>> BLM.

OK my Bad but what do you all propose to fix it?

-Nerf Damage output while Astral Conduit is in Effect?

-Shorten the length of Astral Conduit or lessen it's Full mp when used Capabilities?

- Negate or alter the effects of GEO auras on Avatars?

-Lower the Blood Pact Damage enhancement on Gear?

What do you propose to Fix it?

[Hawklaser]

In terms of raw damage output, AC SMN >>>>>>Melees >>>> BLM.

I wouldn't be so sure about this. The biggest reason is that SMN is mostly burst damage, while most melees rely more on damage over time, and few have the means to output large burst damage.

The reason this is important, is because burst is almost always more preferred than DOT. For one main reason, if both forms can kill a mob in the same time frame, burst wins because it is often safer. As an example, consider a long cast time spell like Freeze vs a melee, if the melee can't kill the mob significantly faster than freeze casts, freeze will be preferred due to being able to negate the threat of the mob during the cast time due to crowd control like sleep or even better the mob still un-agroed.

Now for Teraniku's question about how to bring smn more in line with other jobs. I am perfectly fine with smn having its excellent burst damage, as it is pretty rare that you hear much about smn doing great without the use of a 1hr ability. So really the question should be more about what can be done to endgame content so that stacking smns and burst killing is not the solution.

I don't want to see burst damage become irrelevant, just used more appropriately. And one main idea that comes to mind deal with this is giving mobs greatly increased resistance/evasion to burst abilities during specific phases. So for example, a mob that won't take much damage from a smn until it is at under 2/3rds hp or is doing a specific action.

Much beyond that idea, either ends up drastically nerfing burst classes such as smn, or over buffing the DOT classes. The only other thing I can think of is adding a new agroing mechanic to mobs to detect the preparation of high burst skills and begin attacking before the skill finishes, front load them with significant hate generation and instantly adding any party members within a certain distance to all agroed mobs hate list.

I dunno which would be easier for the devs at this point, reworking the whole agro system, or adding in ways to make it impractical for end game mobs to be just be burst killed in short order without just giving them absurd amounts of hp.

[Nyarlko]

I wouldn't be so sure about this. The biggest reason is that SMN is mostly burst damage, while most melees rely more on damage over time, and few have the means to output large burst damage.

The reason this is important, is because burst is almost always more preferred than DOT. For one main reason, if both forms can kill a mob in the same time frame, burst wins because it is often safer. As an example, consider a long cast time spell like Freeze vs a melee, if the melee can't kill the mob significantly faster than freeze casts, freeze will be preferred due to being able to negate the threat of the mob during the cast time due to crowd control like sleep or even better the mob still un-agroed.

Now for Teraniku's question about how to bring smn more in line with other jobs. I am perfectly fine with smn having its excellent burst damage, as it is pretty rare that you hear much about smn doing great without the use of a 1hr ability. So really the question should be more about what can be done to endgame content so that stacking smns and burst killing is not the solution.

I don't want to see burst damage become irrelevant, just used more appropriately. And one main idea that comes to mind deal with this is giving mobs greatly increased resistance/evasion to burst abilities during specific phases. So for example, a mob that won't take much damage from a smn until it is at under 2/3rds hp or is doing a specific action.

Much beyond that idea, either ends up drastically nerfing burst classes such as smn, or over buffing the DOT classes. The only other thing I can think of is adding a new agroing mechanic to mobs to detect the preparation of high burst skills and begin attacking before the skill finishes, front load them with significant hate generation and instantly adding any party members within a certain distance to all agroed mobs hate list.

I dunno which would be easier for the devs at this point, reworking the whole agro system, or adding in ways to make it impractical for end game mobs to be just be burst killed in short order without just giving them absurd amounts of hp.

I don't think I like your options. :x Most current endgame mobs already have absurd amounts of HP if you bring too many people (due to the scaling factor,) and enmity adjustments probably wouldn't do much to curb the tactic.. One of the SMN would just pop Perfect Defense before going on offense, and given that the speed of SMN burn kills is the main complaint, odds are good they can burn it down before PD wears anyway. Any enmity changes would be more likely to just hurt everyone else and do very little to discourage the tactic.

Perhaps some sort of innate damage taken cap for a specific time frame like 2-3min? Basically, for the first few minutes, being capped to say, 30k per source, might be enough to remove the speed advantage that smn-burns have. A 30k cap would also only affect the highest end melees, so the great majority of the playerbase would be unlikely to be affected. Think of it as an inverse rage phase. XD

[Gwydion]

SE: if you're not going to nerf SMN, can beastmasters get their 20 yalms back?

[Hawklaser]

I don't think I like your options. :x Most current endgame mobs already have absurd amounts of HP if you bring too many people (due to the scaling factor,) and enmity adjustments probably wouldn't do much to curb the tactic.. One of the SMN would just pop Perfect Defense before going on offense, and given that the speed of SMN burn kills is the main complaint, odds are good they can burn it down before PD wears anyway. Any enmity changes would be more likely to just hurt everyone else and do very little to discourage the tactic.

Perhaps some sort of innate damage taken cap for a specific time frame like 2-3min? Basically, for the first few minutes, being capped to say, 30k per source, might be enough to remove the speed advantage that smn-burns have. A 30k cap would also only affect the highest end melees, so the great majority of the playerbase would be unlikely to be affected. Think of it as an inverse rage phase. XD

Interestingly enough, out of all the options I mentioned this mirrors my preferred solution. Giving the mobs phases where astral burn just does not work either due to increased defenses or triggers attacks that have enough range and strength to potentially wipe the whole battlefield. The key is in having that aspect of the phase unable to be bypassed by coordinating multiples landing at the same time like how modus veritas was used. Though a different class, like say multiple samurai could burn through that phase with their 1hrs.

For the agro changes, going to use freeze as an example again. What I would be in favor for here is a decent ammount of aggro being generated at the start of casting on the targeted mob and others on the parties hate list in addition to the what the damage portion generates. Now for something like astral call and conduit, we would be talking along the lines of hate that invincible and benediction generate on use as well as some spill over from the damage applied to both the smn and avatar. It would need some tweaking, but the goal would be to make smn's large burst not be so hate free.

[Nyarlko]

Interestingly enough, out of all the options I mentioned this mirrors my preferred solution. Giving the mobs phases where astral burn just does not work either due to increased defenses or triggers attacks that have enough range and strength to potentially wipe the whole battlefield. The key is in having that aspect of the phase unable to be bypassed by coordinating multiples landing at the same time like how modus veritas was used. Though a different class, like say multiple samurai could burn through that phase with their 1hrs.

For the agro changes, going to use freeze as an example again. What I would be in favor for here is a decent ammount of aggro being generated at the start of casting on the targeted mob and others on the parties hate list in addition to the what the damage portion generates. Now for something like astral call and conduit, we would be talking along the lines of hate that invincible and benediction generate on use as well as some spill over from the damage applied to both the smn and avatar. It would need some tweaking, but the goal would be to make smn's large burst not be so hate free.

It would most likely have to be something that affected all jobs and not just SMN. I'm not sure that the system can tell the difference between pet types for damage calculations, and I for one, absolutely do not want to see BST get nerfed further than it already has been. >.> Even if it is possible to pinpoint BP.Rage, having them trigger "full battlefield" aoes simply removes SMN from playability. They might as well remove the job from the game at that point.

Your proposed enmity changes would either totally cripple SMN by making it too dangerous to use, or possibly turn it into a tank. <,< Again, making a job impossible to play normally is far from a viable solution. Perfect Defense rotations might become a thing again if SMN generated similar enmity to PLD, so be prepared to see 6xSMN parties take over if your proposal got implemented.

Also, enmity is jacked in non-SOA+ zones to begin with, so any baseline enmity changes (like those directly connected to JA/magic) would only make things even wonkier. :/

SMN damage output is actually not imbalanced outside of SP usage, so the only things that should be a potential adjustment target should be stuff that directly relates to damage output while SPs are up. A time-limited damage cap (30k-40k should work) should at least even out the kill-times between SMN/others and reduce the perceived "need" to use SMN for the fastest kills.