Enmity Cap

Ok so i had this really long, really well thought out message with examples and such and then i went to look up a specific term on wiki and my stupid firefox crashed so i lost it. Anyway, with the addition of Rune Fencer something has GOT to be changed about enmity or rune fencer will ONLY be used for it's 'attack runes' and not as a tank which is what it is intended to be. This is no longer just a pld problem or a problem generated by jobs in abyssea, where anyone can tank with the right atma's. With the introduction of the new expansion also, we wont be having those abyssean or voidwatch buffs, especially in the beginning. So PLEASE PLEASE PLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAASE make a TANK a TANK and make it possible to get MORE enmity then other jobs in order to hold the mobs attention rather then just making them a hold job for people to recover or keep something off them. Otherwise, we have pld's with aegis, why do we even need rune fencer?

Easy 2 fix all action have 2 do less hate, that all lol. I really hope the fixing this before new tank job because i gone lvl RUN ;D

At what point did SE state that this new job is intended to be a tank?

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Originally Posted by Twille

At what point did SE state that this new job is intended to be a tank?

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from vanafest report:

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- Their exceptional magic defense and elemental resistance put them squarely in the tank category, along with paladins and ninjas.

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Originally Posted by Lordos

Easy 2 fix all action have 2 do less hate, that all lol. I really hope the fixing this before new tank job because i gone lvl RUN ;D

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This doesn't help at all. You'll still all hit hate cap and be on equal footing regardless of how long it takes to get there. It ends up looking like this (small numbers because they are easier to work with), 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10=100
50+50 = 100 <-- currently how it basically breaks down.
90+10 = 100
100+20 = 100

Now if you were to make everything generate less enmity you get something like,
1 X 100 = 100 actions you would still cap out at 100. Meaning whoever preforms the most actions the fastest would indeed get capped enmity first, but as the battle wore on more people would hit cap and you'd still be in the same boat, the mob going everywhere and no control at all.

I just thought of this while i was doing dishes.... how about we make animus spells raise/lower the amount of enmity that can be completely acquired? For example you cast augeo on the pld, he can get 110 enmity, cast minuo on someone else and they can only get 90? OR have them directly raise/lower enmity, so cast augeo on pld and he instantly gets 50, cast minueo on war and he instantly loses 50, instead of them having actions generate more/less enmity, since everyone will hit cap anyway they're a little but pointless, this would make them tremendously useful.

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Originally Posted by Kavik

This doesn't help at all. You'll still all hit hate cap and be on equal footing regardless of how long it takes to get there. It ends up looking like this (small numbers because they are easier to work with), 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10=100
50+50 = 100 <-- currently how it basically breaks down.
90+10 = 100
100+20 = 100

Now if you were to make everything generate less enmity you get something like,
1 X 100 = 100 actions you would still cap out at 100. Meaning whoever preforms the most actions the fastest would indeed get capped enmity first, but as the battle wore on more people would hit cap and you'd still be in the same boat, the mob going everywhere and no control at all.

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Assuming anyone in your party/alliance is still alive. In all events where "tanking" would seem useful, the monsters are so overpowered that you wouldn't be able to survive long enough to enjoy your time as tank.

Personally, and I know this makes it sound a lot simpler than it is, but I think that non-tanking classes (read as: non-PLD, NIN, RNK, WAR) should have a lower cap on enmity, in addition of course to dramatically reducing enmity gained through damage.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Assuming anyone in your party/alliance is still alive. In all events where "tanking" would seem useful, the monsters are so overpowered that you wouldn't be able to survive long enough to enjoy your time as tank.

Personally, and I know this makes it sound a lot simpler than it is, but I think that non-tanking classes (read as: non-PLD, NIN, RNK, WAR) should have a lower cap on enmity, in addition of course to dramatically reducing enmity gained through damage.

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Unfortunately they have said already they will never do this because it amounts to the melee doing whatever the hell they want without any consequences, ie pulling hate.

Also, as to my animus suggestion, they could make it either an incredibly long recast or make it so they have the normal effect unless you use a certain strategem to make it the 'enhanced' properties I listed above, so you could not always control the enmity of every single person in the party, since you already cannot cast those spells outside of alliance.

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Originally Posted by Kavik

Now if you were to make everything generate less enmity you get something like,
1 X 100 = 100 actions you would still cap out at 100. Meaning whoever preforms the most actions the fastest would indeed get capped enmity first, but as the battle wore on more people would hit cap and you'd still be in the same boat, the mob going everywhere and no control at all.

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and monster HP will be lower!
let assume(random numbers and ideal world for easyness):
10 DD that parse equaly
300k hp monster
a-1dmg=1CE
all DD reach cap after 10*10kDMG=100k=33% of monster hp=> you spend 2/3 of the fight with caotic hate

b) lower it so 1dmg=0.5CE
your DD cap after 200kdmg you only spend 1/3 of the fight with chaotic hate, with some hate control you can spend near whole fight without chaotic enmity.

hiting enmity cap is not the issue, the issue is that when you hit it monster still have most of his HP, if you cap when monster is near dead it doesnt matter

any idea the mods can change the the forum title because theres no tank in this game when it comes to tanking.
I think SE needs to focus on DD for pld now because they kind of useless.

What they could do is have each job type have a different "normal" enmity cap. "Tanks" have something like 1000, "healers" have like 300 or 400 "dds" have maybe 800 and the rest have between 500 to 700. Then have gear (as always) to increase the normal cap if need be. And oh yeah raise the enmity cap to around 1000. The only problem I see is if they "forget" to + the gear that's out now accordingly or if they don't make high enmity gear for mages who still pl. But you won't do that right SE? :rolleyes:

Different caps for different jobs means it will eventually be impossible to take hate from the job with the highest cap. To take an extreme example. A PLD could be hitting the monster for 10 damage every second and still have hate over a DD that deals 50000 damage per second, or a mage that heals 50000 hp per second. I'm sure you can see the problem with something like that.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Different caps for different jobs means it will eventually be impossible to take hate from the job with the highest cap. To take an extreme example. A PLD could be hitting the monster for 10 damage every second and still have hate over a DD that deals 50000 damage per second, or a mage that heals 50000 hp per second. I'm sure you can see the problem with something like that.

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Um...which is why I said to have each job with high enmity gear so each would be able to increase their enmity cap at any time, it's why I put quotation marks around the word normal. To illustrate that with gear they should be allowed to change that cap as the situation demands. So...that...no...one...job...can...monopolize...the...enmity...hopefully.

So.. after recent enmity update, we were doing Ark Angel Galka on Normal difficulty to get 2 ls members the clear. To make this perfectly clear I am MAIN job pld. I am durable. I dislike all my other jobs and prefer to do everything as pld. Which means I spend a LOT of time ATTEMPTING to tank. After this latest update it took 3 minutes for the blu and mnk to hit enmity cap instead of 2. The galka promptly turned around and one-shotted the blu. a few minutes later, he did the same to the mnk. The pup, who happens to be a highly skilled pup, kept his enmity low by using merit abilities and deactivate. Most groups prefer rng's for decoy shot. This is risky because if you have a crappy rng (read ignorant player) you're going to lose no matter how good their gear is. The galka hits me for max of 250 with his WS's and skillchains, most of his regular attacks do 0. The last 18% were spent with the Galka turning from me to the mnk every time one of us performed an action, which, because he was mnk and i was pld.... he was tanking. Until it killed him. JUST STOP GIVING US SHITTY ENMITY UPDATES. This is like when i went to get fast food and said 5 times i wanted 12 tacos and they kept saying 4. It's either do dmg or watch you're enmity. There is no in-between as the game stands. Please stop shafting the tanks. These updates are NOT enough, your player base is not happy with this slip shod stand on it. Make us what we were intended to be a protector of our party via keeping the mobs attention.

Solutions... Simple ones:
Make enmity merits effect you're enmity cap <--this way any person who wants to tank can
make enmity +/- on GEAR effect enmity cap <-- this way any job who chooses to tank can tank by stacking the gear for it.
As i mentioned previously, make animous augeo/minuo do SOMETHING, could also use the (useless) brd spells in the same way so it's not ONLY sch.
Remove the enmity cap or make it changeable by job
Make passive enmity decay vastly faster talking about 10x what it is now.
Increase the most recent adjustments by about 50x <- easiest maybe since you already did it once?

Please just make sweeping changes to this. I promise no one will be upset that the tank can actually hold the mobs attention the majority of the time.

I was the Monk in the above scenario, I did get WS'd down in one hit in my PDT gear Dragonfall to clear my shadows > fudo :(, I was casting another utsu at the time I died, yes Scherzo would've made the difference here, but it wasn't worth the DPS sacrifice, generally, we still recovered and won, but, neither of these things is the issue. Though, I also only died once >.> so I'm not sure where the second death description comes in.

I don't agree with everything Kavik says above, but, I definitely agree that the current patch didn't do enough to change the way enmity works. I basically had my back to the AA for 2/3rds of the fight after I'd capped hate, and only was hitting it after it had just WS, then turned and reapplied utsusemi after a hit or two, really annoying. I'd sit there with my back turned for 15 seconds or so, turn around after it ws'd and it would instantly be on me again...

Just throwing this out there, as it occurred to me... you know /Heal, how it generates enmity (or just raises your place on the enmity list, not exactly sure, but everyone knows /heal affects enmity and does something to increase it in some way.

What if it did the OPPOSITE, every "Tic" that you regain HP/MP, you also lose say 20% of max enmity, perhaps modified by Enmity- gear, so on Monk, instead of just turning, I could've ran a bit away, /heal'd for 30 seconds, and then have been able to hop into the battle fresh and been able to properly DD for a while again.

No scary "imbalance" because people still can't go crazy damage wise without consequences, you don't have to add any new JA to every job to help with enmity, or anything like that.

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mnk every time one of us performed an action, which, because he was mnk and i was pld.... he was tanking.

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^ this bit should say blu. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Different caps for different jobs means it will eventually be impossible to take hate from the job with the highest cap. To take an extreme example. A PLD could be hitting the monster for 10 damage every second and still have hate over a DD that deals 50000 damage per second, or a mage that heals 50000 hp per second. I'm sure you can see the problem with something like that.

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SE doesn't seem to have a problem with it in 14, where the tanks have effectively a 20% higher hate cap than everyone else. Plus provoke just straight up puts you as number 1 on the hate list, no matter how high up anyone else is. The only way you pull hate is if you go all out the second the fight starts, before the tank can even act, or if the tank goes AFK and stops taking any action at all.

I don't really understand why letting DD's pull hate off the tank is a good game design. You're punishing the tank for tanking too well by making him lose hate when he is the one tanking, and you're punishing the DD's for DD'ing too well, by killing them. It's counterintuitive.

Blu spells also add too much enmity. I understand that blue mage pseudo-tanking was a thing, but it is almost impossible for a job other than pld to tank AAs. Please, fix this. I would be cool tanking on blue mage if we had better defensive spells, but we do not.

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Originally Posted by Tennotsukai

Blu spells also add too much enmity. I understand that blue mage pseudo-tanking was a thing, but it is almost impossible for a job other than pld to tank AAs. Please, fix this. I would be cool tanking on blue mage if we had better defensive spells, but we do not.

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Good god, no! /BLU has the best selection of enmity spells left to PLD. Please, do not encourage SE to nerf them. The /RDM nerf hurt enough.

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Originally Posted by Martel

Good god, no! /BLU has the best selection of enmity spells left to PLD. Please, do not encourage SE to nerf them. The /RDM nerf hurt enough.

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The real solution here is to nerf /BLU and give PLD itself better enmity options so it doesn't have to rely on a subjob in order to produce enmity.

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Originally Posted by Kavik

So.. after recent enmity update, we were doing Ark Angel Galka on Normal difficulty to get 2 ls members the clear. To make this perfectly clear I am MAIN job pld. I am durable. I dislike all my other jobs and prefer to do everything as pld. Which means I spend a LOT of time ATTEMPTING to tank. After this latest update it took 3 minutes for the blu and mnk to hit enmity cap instead of 2. The galka promptly turned around and one-shotted the blu. a few minutes later, he did the same to the mnk. The pup, who happens to be a highly skilled pup, kept his enmity low by using merit abilities and deactivate. Most groups prefer rng's for decoy shot. This is risky because if you have a crappy rng (read ignorant player) you're going to lose no matter how good their gear is. The galka hits me for max of 250 with his WS's and skillchains, most of his regular attacks do 0. The last 18% were spent with the Galka turning from me to the mnk every time one of us performed an action, which, because he was mnk and i was pld.... he was tanking. Until it killed him. JUST STOP GIVING US SHITTY ENMITY UPDATES. This is like when i went to get fast food and said 5 times i wanted 12 tacos and they kept saying 4. It's either do dmg or watch you're enmity. There is no in-between as the game stands. Please stop shafting the tanks. These updates are NOT enough, your player base is not happy with this slip shod stand on it. Make us what we were intended to be a protector of our party via keeping the mobs attention.

Solutions... Simple ones:
Make enmity merits effect you're enmity cap <--this way any person who wants to tank can
make enmity +/- on GEAR effect enmity cap <-- this way any job who chooses to tank can tank by stacking the gear for it.
As i mentioned previously, make animous augeo/minuo do SOMETHING, could also use the (useless) brd spells in the same way so it's not ONLY sch.
Remove the enmity cap or make it changeable by job
Make passive enmity decay vastly faster talking about 10x what it is now.
Increase the most recent adjustments by about 50x <- easiest maybe since you already did it once?

Please just make sweeping changes to this. I promise no one will be upset that the tank can actually hold the mobs attention the majority of the time.

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the above suggestions are some of the best that I have seen on the forums so far and the DEV team should implement them. Not only will they allow plds to tank effectively it will also break the current party setup of rng rng pld brd whm for current endgame content.

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Just throwing this out there, as it occurred to me... you know /Heal, how it generates enmity (or just raises your place on the enmity list, not exactly sure, but everyone knows /heal affects enmity and does something to increase it in some way.

What if it did the OPPOSITE, every "Tic" that you regain HP/MP, you also lose say 20% of max enmity, perhaps modified by Enmity- gear, so on Monk, instead of just turning, I could've ran a bit away, /heal'd for 30 seconds, and then have been able to hop into the battle fresh and been able to properly DD for a while again.

No scary "imbalance" because people still can't go crazy damage wise without consequences, you don't have to add any new JA to every job to help with enmity, or anything like that.

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That would actually be a good idea. The problem here isn't enmity generation or the enmity system but the utter lack of enmity reduction abilities in the game. Many other MMO's give their various jobs enmity shunt or cool down abilities that need to be managed, FFXI only really has HJ/SJ which won't protect you from aoe's. The /heal idea works very well for this.