Mal, I was referring to a pld who can go into full turtle themselves. You can hold the mob pretty decently as a pld if you get to hate cap and then take only token damage which the pld only instantly heals itself for. I've seen that tactic used pretty effectively, if the pld is already at cap before anyone else does anything then the hate doesn't get to bounce much with the pld getting the bit of hate from self-curing the little damage they do get and their on damage inflicted-unfortunately that's pretty much exclusively Aegis/Ochain territory. Because the mob will stay on the 1st person to reach cap if they never fall off the cap. But it is very difficult to do and your pld generally has to be the best geared guy in the party to pull it off. and no, TA is not the only one I was referring to, also Decoy Shot and even Cover and of course Conspirator (because the whole party needs to get in range for max effect), accomplice requires the target to be in range as well which it is sometimes hard to use it on the healer when they are back-line. Now, Decoy Shot won't be a factor if letting the pld get to cap 1st, or you can allow your rng to go when the pld does and hit cap in like 4 seconds that way. But yes as to the whm I was referring to what happens when the hate is everywhere so the whm is either having to fire a lot of Cure 5+ on individuals or curaga 4 and the like, congrats, your whm is now your tank, anyone bring a spatula to get him off the floor when they get killed again trying to get up so you still have a healer but without time to put up RR?
I've just seen too many parties go down on too much content because everyone wants to rush in and show off the 16k WS on their Sam as an example instead of letting a tank hold things in place. I mean all those monks you are bringing in in today's environment are supposed to be your "tank", well not when the sam is popping 16k and the whm is spamming back to back cure 6 on him or Curaga 4 if the mob decides to answer with a 1.5k AoE TP move. Now, I'm also not saying this needs to only be pld, if SE is serious they need to revamp nin so blink tanking is an option again and do something drastic to rune defensive ability (I still like the idea of Riposte, the fencing answer to Counter). But I think it's going to need to be more fundamental than that, as not taking damage is only part of the issue, taking hate back and then holding it is just as important as the damage mitigation. But tactically exactly what the players would have to do is really hard to speculate on when we have no idea what-if anything-SE might do to address things.
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11-23-2014, 12:59 AMGlamdring
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11-23-2014, 03:51 AMMalitharExcept that's not how it works. There is no "staying at the cap." Hate is constantly changing, every second you're losing 60 VE, every point of damage you take is reducing your CE, and every action you take is increasing your enmity. Fine, you're right at the cap, teetering back and fourth. And what about that DD that just hit cap? Now you're in a situation where essentually each action, auto attack by one of the players or mob, TP move, WS, etc, is shifting hate. The Pld can't "tank decently" in that situation because at best, the mob is focusing on them 50% of the time. Next DD caps? 33%. Next, 25%. There's no point in a "tank" in that situation, cause everyone is tanking. And with -DT sets, it's pretty much fine on all content, and even fine on most content without -DT sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
As said above, that's not how it works. There is no taunt or way to remain at the cap as you claim. Even if you evaded/parried every single attack, you're still losing 60 VE per second, and assuming you were at the cap, and someone else reaches the cap, the mob will turn to them if they performed the last action on the mob.Quote:
Because the mob will stay on the 1st person to reach cap if they never fall off the cap. But it is very difficult to do and your pld generally has to be the best geared guy in the party to pull it off.
No idea what Conspirator has to do with things here, it's an AoE +Acc and +subtle blow effect. Decoy Shot is unlike anything else we have in the game. Rngs that would sit around and wait for the Pld to cap are just wasting time. Wait for the Pld to get into position? Sure, absolutely. Wait a bit longer to WS to ensure position is correct and such? Sure. But there's no need to sit around and wait for him to cap because Decoy is giving him the enmity that you're generating. In effect, you're capping him. Cover, honestly, just doesn't really do enough. You block auto attacks and spells (with relic head), but the most deadly thing nearly all mobs share is TP moves, which it does nothing for. Not saying Cover can't save someone, but you can't really fault DDs for Cover's lacking when the mob is spinning like a top due to Enmity. If you're complaining about the positioning, then move to the position that Cover works.Quote:
Decoy Shot and even Cover and of course Conspirator (because the whole party needs to get in range for max effect), accomplice requires the target to be in range as well which it is sometimes hard to use it on the healer when they are back-line. Now, Decoy Shot won't be a factor if letting the pld get to cap 1st, or you can allow your rng to go when the pld does and hit cap in like 4 seconds that way.
Notice I said efficient curing. What you just described is anything but. Never mind that even in that situation, you shouldn't pull hate that quickly, but even if you did, just like I've said for DDs, there is an answer. -DT sets. Can't stress this enough, a good -DT set should be a top priority for any job that you play. It's literally game changing for these instances of "oh but now I've got hate ; ;"Quote:
But yes as to the whm I was referring to what happens when the hate is everywhere so the whm is either having to fire a lot of Cure 5+ on individuals or curaga 4 and the like, congrats, your whm is now your tank, anyone bring a spatula to get him off the floor when they get killed again trying to get up so you still have a healer but without time to put up RR?
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11-24-2014, 01:17 PMZheta
Why not just tweak the formulas so that most actions/attacks generate a fraction of the current CE/VE, time sheds more VE, and getting hit sheds more CE? That seems so easy. Problem Solved.
Enmity should tend toward bottoming out rather than capping out.
Go go gadget test server. Do it. -
11-24-2014, 04:12 PMMartelThey've done the bolded one twice now. With the first adjustment reducing dmg dealt CE/VE gained by 70%. Fat lot of good it did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zheta
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11-24-2014, 07:05 PMZhronneIt's what I meant with the fixing things then making those fixes useless often in the same or next patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel
If the average damage done by a DD stayed the same it were back when SoA just shipped then all the mentioned CE/VE reduction changes might have been useful.
But in light of the new base damage of 119 weapons, new WSs, the WSs and magic and SC reform etc... it means pretty much nothing in light of all of this lol. -
11-24-2014, 08:18 PMZhetaYes. It probably should have been more like 98/99% for most actions in addition to higher decays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel
The numbers should be really low, and drop very rapidly such that tank specific actions and lessened damage taken allows tanks to stay slightly ahead only if they're using all the high hate tools available to them. If a melee is hit 1-2 times that should almost floor their CE. Then additional tools like Thief JAs, Super Jump, etc. can be expanded upon to reduce VE akin to a counter-Provoke.
Focus more on bottoming out the process rather than trying to escalate. -
11-25-2014, 09:07 AMGlamdring
Martel, I was factoring in the decay rate. No pld is 100% immune to damage, the curing of the little bit of damage they do take (which is why it needs to be the pld curing himself, not the party healer) means they are continually recapping the VE. In the event they are not taking damage they cure other party members and use their JA. It doesn't work 100% of the time, and TP moves-especially those with a hate reset-are especially dangerous, but it does work on most content with a good paladin.
The comments about Decoy shot were that the range does not need to wait for the paladin to reach cap, they can go immediately-assuming Decoy is up-and GET the pld to cap in a hurry. I'll agree cover needs help, in the same way that SATA does for thief, they don't work in a normal party these days where as you said the mob is spinning like a top or-as you didn't say-doing laps between the DD and the backline. which brings up...
The white mage getting hate. I agree it's undisciplined healing. However, that's exactly what is required when hate goes all over the map-unless the whole party has RR and you don't mind wiping and resetting. Because people won't all be in range of the curaga or someone will keep damage-either melee or DoT on the mob when you try to sleep it for some recovery or any of 100 other things that can go wrong.
But I stand by what I say, while I agree that a defensive set should be in everyone's arsenal on their primary job(s), it often isn't, but even if it is, getting people to put it on is next to impossible, they just complain that the healer and other back-line people should "play better". Well we wouldn't have to be playing off strategy if the DD would mitigate some of the damage they are taking (and a tank and Defensive gear are both part of that, dancer sambas help, using their own job's defensive abilities, etc). Example, I'm primarily a bard in party play and I am continually confronted with players who just rush in before I can get buffs on them, even against boss mobs with silence spells/moves, mages who run out of range when I try to Ballad them, etc. Hint, Pianissimo 3 songs on 5 different players means that 3rd song will die off quick in the rotation, even if that was a reasonable option, which it isn't. I see the same issue for many other support job players. I understand all end-game stuff has a clock, but the point of the buffs we are TRYING vainly to apply is to speed up the rate at which we move through the content, via various means. And don't even get me started on the players who decide to run off on their own in the erroneous assumption that they are so good they can solo the stuff-the raise we backline people will be handing out IF we get back there eventually would seem to indicate they aren't that awesome after all. -
11-25-2014, 09:13 AMMartelI think perhaps you have the wrong address. I don't believe I said anything to you. Martel != MalitharQuote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
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11-25-2014, 09:22 AMGlamdring
you are right, Martel, I was looking at the avatar pic of the guy above me and missed you have the same one. sorry.
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01-15-2015, 08:57 AMdasva
[QUOTE=Zhronne;532773Making the Damage>Enmity conversion and Enmity generation in general, be a dynamic value reliant on the current target's total HP, instead that a fixed value.[/QUOTE]
It's actually not fixed. It's based on mob level. Which is why it kinda worked 1-75. Because generally mobs of similar levels had similar hps so it sorta was adjusting for hp. But as 75 progressed and our strength went up mob stats including hp often went up but level didn't necessarily probably because level difference penalties couldn't be overcome with any amount of stats. But at least it was fairly similiarish so wasn't too awful bad
Which is part of why it started to break down at the end of 75. Now though we have ilvl 113 content mobs with 2mil + hp and 115 ilvl BC fights with 100k hp mobs (I assume those are the approximate mob levels). There now there is effectively no correlation between levels and hps. And as such no correlation between max amount of enmity you can generate between mobs. Add onto the fact that a lot of the really high ones also have mechanisms/weaknesses that increase your dmg output on them and it's completely out of control. One mob you can generate enmity 10 times faster and 10 times as much than another of the same level. As such I can't think of any adjustment that could balance things on all relevant mobs other than changing it to hp. Merely adjusting the formula doesn't fix that it just makes it so some of the higher ones you can't get too much but the lower ones you can never cap with dmg at all. Especially when you do a really simple one like add 100 to the denominator to the level adjust equation which is what it looks like they did