Bard Adjustments

Since the development team wanted feedback on upcoming job adjustments this year, can we talk about a big quality of life fix for Bard?

Please add an NPC somewhere in the world that we could "show" or "trade" an instrument that gives us additional songs in exchange for a key item that would allow your character to use that additional number of songs permanently.

Examples - Trading a Terpander to the NPC would grant a permanent key item that allows you to cast 3 song buffs all the time. The item would not be consumed.

Trading a Daurdabla to the NPC would grant a permanent key item that allows you to cast 4 song buffs all the time. The item would not be consumed.

Having to not cast dummy songs on Bard would be a huge improvement and one that is long overdue.

I would be interested in input from career Bards to other ways the job could be further improved because it still lags behind Geomancer and Corsair in a lot of respects.

As a veteran bard who has played bard over 12 years getting a KI to do the 3rd and 4th songs would be a waste of an opportunity to improve bard. If such a KI was implemented, it would make Terpander and Daurdabla basically throw away weps after you got the KI. Having to do dummy songs is part of the skill that is required to play bard.

I've made multiple threads over the years suggesting what can be done to improve bard.

There are better things to improve on such as gaining our 100% slow song, massacre elegy.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Massacre-Elegy

Fixing the ballad overwrite issue
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...llad-overwrite

Adjustment of the song effects on enemy pets or give players songs effects to player pets
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...2018-ambuscade
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...cc-Regen/page2

I don't thing having to cast 6 songs once then being able to do 4 songs is too much of an issue (well, some people actually cast 4 dummies and then 4 ghorn songs, but you can just do 2 dummies if you understand the job properly)

However even if they did the KI thing, Daurdabla would still be incredibily valuable for sleeps, the extra song duration is really helpful when you meet the magic accuracy requirements, considering Gjallarhorn has a lower range as its not a string instrument.

Also if you can reach 10 minutes songs, which is the recast timer for Marcato without using the inyanga leg armor, that totally fixes the ballad issue and you can still keep full time Marcato Honor March so that's not too much of an issue.

Casting songs on pets would be cool but kind of OP for smn, they'd have to do extra adjustments for balance if they did that.

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Originally Posted by DarkValefor

I don't thing having to cast 6 songs once then being able to do 4 songs is too much of an issue (well, some people actually cast 4 dummies and then 4 ghorn songs, but you can just do 2 dummies if you understand the job properly)

However even if they did the KI thing, Daurdabla would still be incredibily valuable for sleeps, the extra song duration is really helpful when you meet the magic accuracy requirements, considering Gjallarhorn has a lower range as its not a string instrument.

Also if you can reach 10 minutes songs, which is the recast timer for Marcato without using the inyanga leg armor, that totally fixes the ballad issue and you can still keep full time Marcato Honor March so that's not too much of an issue.

Casting songs on pets would be cool but kind of OP for smn, they'd have to do extra adjustments for balance if they did that.

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Did you read my ballad post? I think I've laid out the problem with the ballad overwrite issue all there.

Like you say in your post this issue happens because the duration of your ballads is lower than the other songs.

What I'm saying is I have this issue fixed by doing the following:

1. Do not use Inyanga leg armor because it increases the song duration for minuets and madrigals but you can't use it for ballads as you'd be missing the ballad +1 from empyrean armor. I just use empyrean for all of my songs, as you can still reach 10 minutes duration with ni-tro. It also adds extra dex for madrigals and str for minuets and i have no problem with losing a bit of duration as long as songs still last 10+ min

2. And this is an issue that in my opinion will get fixed when they come out with empyrean +3 armor, do not use song +9 for now if you want to keep 3 ballads on the mages. I know this is not a solution right now but I'm pretty sure the empyrean updates will fix this.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly Voicememo. I think that:

1.) Clarion Call should automatically give a 5th song when the ability is used (without the need to equip Daurdabla)
2.) 3rd and 4th songs should be innate abilities of the Bard once the weapons are acquired WITHOUT the need to cast dummy songs.

You can call it skill as much as you want, but if SE's goal in 2019 is to make "jobs more fun" ....I can't think of a better candidate for bard, that to drop the need for pointless dummy songs, swapping into dummy song sets, hoping that ovewrites take place based on remaining duration or current magic skill, etc.

Should be able to take Daurdaubla to Kupofried and learn 3rd song permanently like Empyrean WS IMO. >.> Probably too challenging code-wise for them to tackle at this point tho.

I guess agree to disagree

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly Voicememo. I think that:

1.) Clarion Call should automatically give a 5th song when the ability is used (without the need to equip Daurdabla)

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The fact that you don't seem to understand how clarion call works, indicates you may not be a career bard. Clarion call grans the ability to cast 1 more song, you dont need to equip daurbdala or terpander. I you use CC you can sing 3 songs directly with any instrument. Basically you're a native 3 song bard when CC is active. AFTER those 3 are up, THEN you must use instruments that grant you additional songs to get up dummy songs.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

2.) 3rd and 4th songs should be innate abilities of the Bard once the weapons are acquired WITHOUT the need to cast dummy songs.

You can call it skill as much as you want, but if SE's goal in 2019 is to make "jobs more fun" ....I can't think of a better candidate for bard, that to drop the need for pointless dummy songs, swapping into dummy song sets, hoping that ovewrites take place based on remaining duration or current magic skill, etc.

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Would the change to make 3rd and 4th song ki be handy? Yes, BUT bard would not gain any additional power/utility than it already has. You already can cast 3 4 or 5 songs, all you are doing with KI is changing the mechanics. My suggestions increase bards power/utility.

Massacre elegy, 100% slow, effectively doubling all timers.

The difference in duration of ballad compared to other songs, a 27% difference.

Yes there was a suggestion to NOT use Inyanga Shalwar +2, but not using an item that is BiS for the stat seems against what most players would strive for. That we have to gimp ourselves to makeup for SE's shortcomings. Yes it is still over 10 min, BUT it is shorter than the maximum duration possible.

There is no hoping when overwriting songs, Song overwrite order follows the order that it will overwrite the song that has the least duration first, which is why there is the ballad overwrite issue. When songs are NT'd, Troubadour specifically, the duration is doubled. Since ballad is a shorter duration, when ballad 3 is cast then ballad 2, ballad 2 overwrites ballad 3.

The ability of song effects on enemy pets is about consistency. If SE takes it away from enemies, it's still a gain for bard since it debuffs mobs(compared to how they are now). Same as if SE gives the ability for players song effects to players pets, a net gain.

All 3 suggestions I've laid out get bard more power and utility. All a 3rd, 4th song ki does is change the mechanics of how bard is played, gaining no power or utility, which seems like a wasted opportunity since SE is asking players what they would like.

From my standpoint, KI for 3rd and 4th song is being asked by non MAX bards(bards that don't have REMAA and both necks). Likely those without mythic and don't understand how much 50% duration boost helps. With the longer duration, gives me time to help cure, na or dd. The bards asking for 3rd and 4th song ki are likely song bards only.

If they wanted to give us 3-4 songs with a KI there would've been a WoE path that didn't include heavy metal plates and riftcinders.

Seems to come down to VoiceMemo asking for actual system changes and significant buffs to the job's output, while others are asking for a QOL change that would simplify playing the job. I'm more on the QOL team here.

Dealing with dummy songs is little more than a timesink during gameplay. It doesn't actually take any more skill at playing the job to sing 2x bad songs with one instrument before overwriting them with 4x good songs from a different instrument, it just takes extra time and extra macros. ^^;; Whether the devs' would implement it as a KI, or as a simple data flag (like how every other Empyrean ws works,) would be up to them, and wouldn't really impact players much. I would personally prefer that there's only one flag/KI, for 4-song Daurdabla. You would still need to max lvl it, which would quash complaints about being "too easy", and it's not like it would be consumed in the process, so you'd still be able to use it for all current use cases... It would just eliminate the very unintuitive dummy song process and would be a legit QOL improvement regardless of how geared you are otherwise.

The simplest solution for the Ballad overwrite issue, would be to add a Ballad+ piece of gear in a non-conflicting slot (maybe waist?) with other song enhancing gear to allow for parity between (useful/used) songs. Might want to wait to add it til the same time they do Empy+2/+3 reforges to make sure that the values match up. I just don't see the devs doing a major overhaul of the song system to accommodate changes to Ballad only... Seems like something ripe for being bug-infested and game-breaking too, which I personally would shy away from asking for. >_>

I would love it if songs affected pets, but it seems like something that could have some massive technical hurdles to overcome, plus you know, game balance. It would undeniably break the current game balance if all of a sudden both master+pet started benefiting from songs. (Might even be enough to finally get me meleeing as BST in that case tho. lol) Yes, there'd be issues with SMN avatars getting beefed up even more, but in my mind, I'd be worried more about the effects on PUP and BST. (DRG barely counts as a pet job, but I'm sure they wouldn't complain about a DPS buff.) PUP is already quite capable of doing quite a bit and songs on autos could be enough to make them able to do a bit too much compared to others. BST... I don't want to even imagine what sort of whinefest would get started up this time against BST if it was possible for both master+pet to melee together fully buffed. We got hobbled (literally!) last time there were complaints, and I don't want us to get castrated too because BRD beefed us up too much. <,<;;

I'm not sure the tech actually exists to enable master+pet songs actually.. I can't think of anything beyond a handful of food items and Mythic AM which is even able to affect both players+pets. And again, there would be definite game balance concerns with a sudden huge increase in pet performance. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if there was even only a way to make songs on me affect my pet INSTEAD of me as BST.. but I don't see it happening since that would likely require actual new spells in the dats to work. :(

But, if we're asking for new songs, then I'd prefer M.Acc/MAB songs, maybe even MBD/SCB for something more interesting? :D

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

The simplest solution for the Ballad overwrite issue, would be to add a Ballad+ piece of gear in a non-conflicting slot (maybe waist?) with other song enhancing gear to allow for parity between (useful/used) songs. Might want to wait to add it til the same time they do Empy+2/+3 reforges to make sure that the values match up. I just don't see the devs doing a major overhaul of the song system to accommodate changes to Ballad only... Seems like something ripe for being bug-infested and game-breaking too, which I personally would shy away from asking for. >_>

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In case didn't see my solution I posted I'll quote myself

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

For those who wish to discuss this further and not be condescending like Songen here is my example situation.

party of 11, composed of

party 1 Tank, Whm, Geo, brd, DD, DD
party 2 DD, DD, DD, cor, whm

Brd Soul voices and CC's NT
Than pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, cannot put any more ballads as ballad 2 would overwrite ballad 3

Brd then swaps to 2nd party, sings madrigal, madrigal, attack, daurdabla song1, daurdabla song 2, honor, victory
again pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, and cannot put any more ballads as they would overwrite ballad 3

NT has worn by now and it is still impossible to overwrite other songs with ballads and because of the amount of songs it is impossible to have whm stand away
from the dd so that they do not receive the dd songs, as the max time for NT is 1 min 20 seconds with max NT merits you can get 15, maybe 16 songs off when you include swap time, pianissimo ja time and if swap is slow NT will not last long enough to get the 2nd party with full duration songs.

This is why I think ballads should act like hastes where the higher one cannot be overwritten by a lower one, thereby forcing one of the other songs off. After NT wears soul voice and cc still have a good 1 min 40 seconds left. I would like to apply 3 ballads 2 marches on myself so I would have more mp refresh to assist healing/na'ing alliance.

It makes no sense to reorder songs in this case to focus on ballads first as this is all about DD songs, dd's would benefit more from songs with longer duration, but to help support it would be good to have ballads on, but the song duration prevents this.

The only other solutions are to add more ballad + gear on slots that currently don't have all song or song duration on them. Adding more all song gear would just keep the ballad to other song gap the same. The current gap is 27% between acc/march compared to ballad duration.

Or to increase the base duration of ballads by 27%, 32.4s.

Ballad +2 on empyrean legs is not enough to bridge the gap between other songs. To match other songs legs would have to be Ballad +3.7

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

But, if we're asking for new songs, then I'd prefer M.Acc/MAB songs, maybe even MBD/SCB for something more interesting? :D

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SE said song palette is full, so they can only add new songs if they remove one. Massacre elegy is in game already so it takes up a song spot. MACC/MAB or MDB/SCB would be nice, but what would be removed if they added those types of songs?

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

SE said song palette is full, so they can only add new songs if they remove one. Massacre elegy is in game already so it takes up a song spot. MACC/MAB or MDB/SCB would be nice, but what would be removed if they added those types of songs?

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I agree with your solution making sense, but do you really think the current skeleton crew would be able to actually accomplish adding a song-specific priority system without borking everything else up AND without working on nothing else in the game for 3mon+? ^^;;

As far as what to remove goes... Well, how often does anyone use all of the status resist songs? <,< Freed up song spots found!

... Seriously, when was the last time you actually wanted to have something like Goblin Gavotte or Shining Capriccio active? lol Would these not make worthy sacrifices to make room for spells that actually would improve bard's position as a buffer in comparison to geo?

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

In case didn't see my solution I posted I'll quote myself





SE said song palette is full, so they can only add new songs if they remove one. Massacre elegy is in game already so it takes up a song spot. MACC/MAB or MDB/SCB would be nice, but what would be removed if they added those types of songs?

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Looks like we're talking about bard rotations here, well, for that case and considering you are using your 1hr, that corsair in the 2nd party seems to be perfect, but again, unless the content lasts exactly 12 minutes instead of 10, I don't see why you can't just avoid using your +17% duration legs in order to just be able to do the 3 ballads right away. To me it's just a matter of adjusting all my songs gear so they all last the same.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

I agree with your solution making sense, but do you really think the current skeleton crew would be able to actually accomplish adding a song-specific priority system without borking everything else up AND without working on nothing else in the game for 3mon+? ^^;;

As far as what to remove goes... Well, how often does anyone use all of the status resist songs? <,< Freed up song spots found!

... Seriously, when was the last time you actually wanted to have something like Goblin Gavotte or Shining Capriccio active? lol Would these not make worthy sacrifices to make room for spells that actually would improve bard's position as a buffer in comparison to geo?

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I think bard is in a fine position atm, it's just stagnant. Bard can cap magical haste alone with 2 spell, adds more attack or accuracy. Then you work WITH a geo, who has percentage based buffs to buff accuracy or attack.

Bards job is to always work WITH the others in party, not against. Yes geo get a bigger buff from percentage boosts, but when you combine both, it makes it that much better.

Much like the removal of buffs from enemy pets, we don't know what it would take to remove a song from the current listing and replacing it with another spell. I know of no instance where a spell has been removed in the game and replaced with another on any job in the games history.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I think bard is in a fine position atm, it's just stagnant. Bard can cap magical haste alone with 2 spell, adds more attack or accuracy. Then you work WITH a geo, who has percentage based buffs to buff accuracy or attack.

Bards job is to always work WITH the others in party, not against. Yes geo get a bigger buff from percentage boosts, but when you combine both, it makes it that much better.

Much like the removal of buffs from enemy pets, we don't know what it would take to remove a song from the current listing and replacing it with another spell. I know of no instance where a spell has been removed in the game and replaced with another on any job in the games history.

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Happens every single month for mobs in Ambuscade. So that much should be at least possible. ^^;;

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Happens every single month for mobs in Ambuscade. So that much should be at least possible. ^^;;

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I don't believe that is the same situation. Ambuscade, a single instanced fight, was added years later after jobs were written, and is specifically designed to change every month. Jobs, spell list were coded during PS2 era, so depending how the coding was done, it could be difficult to remove and add a spell in the same place.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I don't believe that is the same situation. Ambuscade, a single instanced fight, was added years later after jobs were written, and is specifically designed to change every month. Jobs, spell list were coded during PS2 era, so depending how the coding was done, it could be difficult to remove and add a spell in the same place.

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The spell list for the mobs inside of ambuscade get overwritten each month. From what I understand, they are just part of the normal mob spell list. It is not like Ambuscade uses it's own .dat for the spells/abilities used inside of it. So we know that spells should be overwrite-able, which would mean that the main challenge in replacing spells w/ new ones would be dealing with new graphics.. Maybe we could try convincing the devs that we really don't care and they are welcome to reuse existing ones? XD

Bard adjustment listed for september 2019 update.

"On the job adjustments front, this month we’re bringing some changes to bards, including the transitioning of some songs from merit point categories to scrolls. As you have no doubt surmised from similar updates to other jobs, we’ll be adding new merit point and augment categories in the place of those which no longer exist."

The issue with adding new merit point categories, it is very hard to give up 5/5 Nightingale and Troubadour merits. So any new merit point category would have to be really good to give up any points in NT merits.

I hope that there is more than the conversion of Sirvente and Dirge to spells and we get other updates.

They are changing Tonko: San to make room for Siren. It was noticed on FFXIAH (source) that it was changed to Summoning Magic awhile back but left the name the same for now.

Disclaimer: I potter about as BRD on occasion but I have minimal practical experience.

I definitely agree with the OP that additional song slots should be a character attribute and not an instrument attribute. Dummy songs and the like are fine, and they work to a certain extent, and yes they do require skill and understanding to use correctly, but ultimately they are a bit of a cludge and, for me personally, they don't feel good to use. It would surprise me if SE intended them to be used this way, but clearly they've decided to roll with it.

The issues with songs not overwriting as desired when there are different amounts of songs+/duration+ was something that really put me off Bard. It was something I could deal with, but it was an additional frustration on top of dummy songs and the like. What about something like this - a "wipe the slate clean" solution for a single target:

Caesura
Bard lv.50
Recast time: 0:05
Ends all songs previously sung by you on a target.

I think it's better to address the issue with an abstraction than to tinker with equipment values - those will change in the future, and therefore the problem could easily reappear in a different guise.

As I expected the merit categories that replace Foe Sirvente and Adventurer’s Dirge are not good enough to warrant giving up 5/5 NT merits.

Pre-adjustment → Post-adjustment
Foe Sirvente → Con Anima
Adventurer’s Dirge → Con Brio

Con Anima
Decreases own physical damage taken while singing a beneficial song. Decrease damage taken by 1%.

Con Brio
Decreases own magic damage taken while singing a beneficial song. Decrease damage taken by 1%.

Hopefully this not the ONLY adjustment bard gets, because it's really disappointing. Does not really help the job at all, sirvente and dirge are very limited in use because there are other songs that are more beneficial to battles.

SE please if you're going to make each job unique PLEASE read the forums. I have posted many issues about brd. The highest priority to me is the ballad overwrite issue.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...verwrite/page2

Followed by the spell icons for bard, could easily color each different song type a different color, IE attack red, defense blue etc.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-Icons-for-BRD

Be consistent about bard songs affecting pets. Mob bards can buff Mob pets, yet players cannot buff player pets. It should be the same, why do beastman bards have more power than player bards in this respect. Either remove Mob bards song effects on mob pets, or allow player songs to affect player pets.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...cc-Regen/page2

and lastly finally giving us the player bards massacre elegy

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Massacre-Elegy