Why not simply add a Great Sword Weapon skill damage trait to Rune Fencer ? They should at least do damage equivalent to paladin's weapon skill damage since Paladin is a tank as well. Paladin and Rune Fencer weapon skill damage output should at least be equivalent to each other even though Great Sword weapon skills should actually hit a little harder. Right now I see the great sword weapon skill damage doing about half of what Paladin's are doing with regular sword weapon skills.
We should get 100% Great Sword weapon skill damage increase with these traits by the time the Rune Fencer hits 99 and maxed Job Points. You could start giving these job traits at level 50, and then like 10% every 10 levels afterwards up til 99,which will be 50%last one given at 99) and then finish the rest with job points with the Great Sword Weapon skill damage II trait in job points for another 50% so it totals to 100% when complete. This way other jobs can't take advantage of it and do more with it than the one aka (Rune Fencer) who specializes in it. The reason I say Great sword Weapon skill damage trait specifically, is to give RUN more of an incentive to use it than using a different weapon with it and keeps other jobs away from it.
Job trait: Great Sword Weapon Skill Damage 10% every 10 levels up til the normal max 50%. Level 99 for the last regular one.
Job trait: Great Sword Weapon Skill Damage II 10% on each bonus gift. allows to bring it 50% beyond the regular one.
This would at least give us a leg to stand on and would help gather and keep hate as well as being decent with damage.
Another reason I came up with this idea is, because if you increase the base damage of all weapon skills individually, then other jobs will want to use it and will end up doing more with it and ending up in the same situation. So it would have to be Rune Fencer specific. So traits seem the best solution for it. Also since the trait would effect all of them too. They would also stack with the regular gear you get so it gets equivalent damage to the other tanks, even if they use similar weapon skill damage gear.
Idea to fix Greatsword Weapon Skill damage for Rune Fencer
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05-16-2016, 03:17 PMRyakIdea to fix Greatsword Weapon Skill damage for Rune Fencer
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05-17-2016, 01:20 AMKensagaku
Eh, I don't really like a specific weapon boost as opposed to in general; the only similar things you see are Hasso (all two-handed weapons, STR/Atk/Acc/JA Haste+), Desperate Blows (all two-handed weapons, JA Haste+) and Fencer (one-handed with no off-handed weapon, TP Bonus/Crit Rate+), and they are far, far more general. The problem with Rune Fencer damage output isn't that Great Sword is bad; on the contrary, it's that RUN has a few notable disadvantages when it comes to dealing damage as a tank.
The first is that compared to Paladin, which is on a heavy-armor job, has a lot more access to WS modifiers than RUN does. Savage Blade uses STR and MND, which are plentiful enough on their gear, and even with CDC being DEX, something found more commonly on lighter armor, they get access to several pieces that boost critical rate/damage, bump up attack, and even have modest amounts of DEX. Comparatively, on light armor we see a lot less STR for Resolution, which also has an Attack Penalty on it where we aren't doing the best anyway, or else we have Dimidiation, whose fTP isn't as good as Savage Blade by a long shot and lacks the extra omph of critical hits that CDC has, even though it has the DEX mod we work best with.
The second issue is also that Paladin has access to Fencer due to often subbing WAR, which further boosts how nice it has it for CDC and Savage Blade. Even with just Fencer I, they're getting +200 TP Bonus (which, combined with Moonshade earring, means that doing Savage Blade at 1550+ TP does a LARGE chunk of damage), and an extra 5% Crit rate towards Chant du Cygne (which I believe is actually more like 7% if the crit rate from TP is linear). RUN doesn't get any of this with tanking subjobs; while we benefit largely from Hasso from /SAM or Desperate Blows from /DRK, these lack the defensive traits we need as a tank, like /NIN's shadows or /BLU's Cocoon for defense and enmity-producing tools. So our disadvantages come from having less access to the tools we need (more STR-based gear for Resolution, or traits like Fencer that we can use), but not because Great Sword is bad. And again, I think that programming in a specific trait one weapon for one job seems a bit... I dunno, arrogant of a request? I just can't get behind it.
I'd say switch to swords and behold the wonders of a well-geared Vorpal Blade or your own Savage Blade (both of which I use frequently when CPing solo), but honestly, an augmented Aettir (PDT II-5%, Enmity+10, and Meva+50 for tanking) is just too useful when you're actually tanking as opposed to damage dealing, and heaven forbid you switch to something else if you get an Epeolatry, though that might also make Dimidation more viable.
On a closing note, I'd like to say that Paladin actually has many of the similar problems we do when it comes to job traits and abilities for doing damage. If you peruse their page, you'd notice that they lack output tools aside from Enlight. They get their benefits from a subjob and weapon skills that favor their armor options, not their own traits or abilities, so really it's just a matter of how the jobs have developed various needs for certain subjobs while tanking and the benefits those subjobs give.
Edit:
Also forgive me, but I saw this line and spat out my drink.
Damage is not what's going to help us keep up with hate. We have some of the best hate-pulling tools in our job abilities, our fast recast of Flash with Inspiration's FC and appropriate gear as well as Foil, and no shortage of enmity+ gear to help us reduce hate loss if we take hits. If you're having a hard time holding hate, then either someone is bursting out of the gate at the start before you pull hate, or you're not making use of all of your tools with appropriate gearsets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryak
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05-17-2016, 06:24 AMUrmom
I have both pld and run both fairly decently geared and while it might be easier to get a bit better ws numbers on pld dps for the run is a lot higher (at least when you aren't spamming jas/spells for hate but in those situations tank dmg isn't that important) largely thanks to vastly superior tp gain and white dmg. Nothing like back to back self lights and all
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05-17-2016, 12:42 PMRyak
We are supposed to be able to do that kind of weapon skill damage with our main weapon which is Great Sword, not some other weapon Rune Fencer has a lower rank in. The weapon specific weapon skill damage trait is not arrogant by ANY means. It was pure tactical and well thought out. It is to give Rune Fencer better weapon skill damage with the weapon they are actually supposed to be using and not on other weapons.
If we were to get a regular weapon skill damage trait, then people would use other weapons with it and not the main one which is Great Sword, which would defeat the purpose. It has to be Rune Fencer and GS specific to prevent that.
I only said hate because I seen other people posting about that in other posts/forums. I've never really had too much trouble with hate,even without any enmity gear. Some of the JA timers could be lowered a bit though for people who do have trouble. Maybe knock off 2 minutes bringing them to 3 minutes.
Now I'm not saying we need to be the best damage dealer and such. Just better damage for the Great Sword Weapon skills without it going to other jobs.
I'm all for the Fencer trait for RUN too, but I have actually tried it on Rune Fencer with WAR subbed as a test and it didn't seem to help it much either.
I also know tanks normally are supposed to do lower weapon skill damage than actual DD's. Just not that low. -
05-17-2016, 01:10 PMKensagaku...I'm sorry to be the one to point this out, but claiming an idea you put forward is "well thought-out and smart" is enough to prove my point. An idea that originates from someone else that you claim to be a good idea is an indicator that their idea has some merit in the eyes of another person. But saying your own idea is "smart" or "well thought-out" is subjective and frankly, coming from the originator just goes back to my point of arrogance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryak
We are supposed to do that kind of damage with our main weapon, yes. But only in a situation where we are actually DDing, which is the same time I'm seeing such high damage from sword weapon skills. When I'm tanking? I'm lucky to even be HITTING anything, because I'm focused on mitigation gear, enmity+ so that if I get hit I lose less hate, or status resist gear for reducing the effects of enfeebling effects. So no, when tanking, we're not DDs, and we're not putting out those numbers without the appropriate subjobs and weapon skills being enhanced in the same ways as Savage Blade and Chant du Cygne.
But you know the difference between Great Sword and Sword? A+ to A. A grand total of 7 skill at 99. Whoop-de-doo. Just because it's slightly less than our main weapon doesn't mean it is inferior. In fact, in most cases it is superior, as we get a second weapon with its own bonuses (such as a Fettering Blade or Flyssa's high acc, as well as Fettering Blade's high MAB for Lunges and Swipes).
So I'll retain my point: I don't think that RUN needs any sort of weaponskill damage trait. We are not a damage-dealer. We are a tank. Tanks are meant to hold hate, survive where others cannot, and support the party. We deal extra damage by inflicting Gambit and Rayke, letting our mages do a ton more damage. We deal extra damage by tossing out well-timed Lunges and Swipes for extra damage. We deal extra damage by keeping the rest of the party alive and holding the mob in a place where it does not threaten them. -
05-18-2016, 01:51 AMUrmom
A lot of the problem is hitting potential. Maxxed out pdif, acc, tp resolution is decently better than any single wielding sword ws even 100% crit rate cdc. Dimidiation can even do decent dmg though definitely lower. But due to subjobs and partly how the job works you are more likely to have higher attack, acc and ws tp on pld.
A better idea than wsdmg trait would be something like an attack trait or maybe some acc spell like pld gets perhaps add stats to runes... like fire gives att, thunder acc etc. And take away the att penalty on resolution. -
05-23-2016, 09:14 PMAfaniaRUN GS damage is bad because resolution has attack penalty. Get more attack buffs from COR and GEO, you should start seeing higher WS dmg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryak
If you can't get more attack buffs, RUN can still use a swords.
RUN is a tank job, it's kinda weird to get any kind of damage boost trait. Also if the GS WSD+ trait you talk about is the same as WSD+ on gears, it'd be quite useless for resolution since it only works on 1st hit. In that case an "attack bonus" trait would be far more useful to boost RUN's DPS.
Still kinda weird to see a tank job getting DPS boost though. -
05-27-2016, 06:15 PMOmnysValefor
It's also not all about big numbers. You can Rayke and Gambit which is going to do more for the casters on high level content than my savage blades, CDCs, or lolAtonements. Just like me, you have the capability to close some scholar skillchains and we can't forget the abilities you have that magic burst.
PLD/WAR might (probably does) do more personal damage than RUN/WAR or RUN/NIN, but we don't really do anything for the group's DPS. Also remember that Sanguine Blade can do good damage with a proper m.acc/m.att set, which can be especially nice for soloing old content.
You're from my server but I've never seen you around. You might see some PLDs popping off massive savage blades, but understand that they've generally put work into their WS sets. Half the nicely-defensive-geared PLDs I see couldn't land a Savage Blade in West Ronfaure. -
05-29-2016, 05:38 AMcengeal
While I agree that Rune Fencer using a Great Sword should do more potent damage, the job's MO is to tank. I wouldn't mind seeing Dimidiation get a boost (then again, I think most 2H WS's in general need a boost). But as previously stated, Rune Fencer's spike damage potential lies within Lunge and Swipe. Rune Fencer is probably the most under utilized job in the game at the moment and it's mostly because people just don't understand the job very well. Half the players I meet don't even know Lunge and Swipe can Magic Burst. They also don't understand that RUN can hold hate better than PLD.
Like I said, I agree that 2H WS's in general fall short of 1H counterparts. However, I would rather see RUN get more tanking gear options, and maybe adjust some of their JA's before getting a WS damage boost.