Vulcan's vs. Jupiter's staff (bow)

[Alderin]

Ok this question is for the Gandiva users. I know Vulcan's is better for gun due to fire affinity however my question is this -

Why do so many (if not everyone) I see with Gandiva use Vulcan's over Jupiter's staff?

We are basically looking at +10 R.Attk vs. 15% Crit Hit Rate.

On paper (as I am yet to parse this) Jupiter's with fairly standard gear will increase DPS by about 10%. If we are talking purely overall bonus, vulcan's staff offers (from my terribly rough math) a ~1.3% boost in R.Attk for a lvl 90 RNG (Due to a lvl 90 Hume RNG having about ~820 R.Attk). Yet Jupiter's offers a solid 15% boost in crit hit rate.

So in *theory* Jupiter's is a stupidly overpowering main hand boost compared to Vulcan's..

What am I missing that Vulcan staff users know about?

[Alkalinehoe]

What am I missing that Vulcan staff users know about?
That Jupiter's Crit rate affects only the staff.

[Alderin]

Nevermind! case closed. Cheers for enlightening me.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Oneiros knife and augmented Yataghans are also an option, assuming not /sam and/or using Hasso/TE.

[Annahya]

That Jupiter's Crit rate affects only the staff.

Wow - I am fairly new to RNG myself, and was unaware this distinction existed. Is it specific to certain gear, or does Critical Hit Rate never apply to ranged attacks?

I was looking for support for this, but all I could find was a discussion entry on FFXIclopedia stating that it was unlikely that it affected ranged attacks (citing examples of a couple other items).

If this is the case, is it all +CritRate sources, not just gear? When we set RR are we only getting the +CritDamage from it?

Thanks in advance for any answers, clarification or evidence.

[esoR]

crit rate on weapons only effects that weapon. crit rate on gear is universal, crit dmg on weapons/gear is universal.

[Myrrh]

crit rate on weapons only effects that weapon. crit rate on gear is universal, crit dmg on weapons/gear is universal.

Now, if only more Rngs knew and understood this. Would make for a lot less crappy RNGs out there.

[Annahya]

crit rate on weapons only effects that weapon. crit rate on gear is universal, crit dmg on weapons/gear is universal.

Thank you for the answer - and again, I am not disputing this - but is there research I can read about this? I should have been more clear that data is really what I was asking for, as I still cannot find anything explaining the researched distinction - entries in both FFXIclopedia and the BGwiki don't explain it, and I have had little luck locating threads on the subject; though I might be looking in all the wrong places.

Mostly I want to be able to direct people to the data; in small part, I just enjoy reading all that nerdy stuff.

So, to anyone out there, can you provide a link or some direction to research about this?

Trollsclaimer: Restating that it is the case is not necessary - as I have already conceded that I was unaware of the distinction, can comprehend what has been stated, and I am not arguing its existence or truth value.

[esoR]

rng forums on ffxiah are a source. also random question thread on BG (after using search function). there may also be a critical hit rate test thread on bg or AH somewhere. my source of the info comes from knowing how the senj-katana works (ie. not in off hand for ws)

[noodles355]

Crit damage: Fire some shots at lvl 1 mobs and record criticals. Equip crit damage yatagans, shoot more and record numbers. ranged damage is very consistant, it'll be easy to spot.
Crit rate: Open parser, fight in an exp party for a while without Thunder Staff, note crit rate. Reset parse, repeat with thunder staff equipped. If it worked it would be very noticible on the parse.

[Mirabelle]

Now, if only more Rngs knew and understood this. Would make for a lot less crappy RNGs out there.

I have yet to see a RNG with Jupiter's staff so there can't be too many out there. There's hardly any RNG's out there at all these days.
If you are going to carp on RNG's for something, why not use the old standby, "Quit using cheap ammo!". You're more likely to see a RNG using Demon arrows than a RNG usng Jupiters staff.

[Annahya]

rng forums on ffxiah are a source. also random question thread on BG (after using search function). there may also be a critical hit rate test thread on bg or AH somewhere. my source of the info comes from knowing how the senj-katana works (ie. not in off hand for ws)

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of the info.


Crit damage: Fire some shots at lvl 1 mobs and record criticals. Equip crit damage yatagans, shoot more and record numbers. ranged damage is very consistant, it'll be easy to spot.
Crit rate: Open parser, fight in an exp party for a while without Thunder Staff, note crit rate. Reset parse, repeat with thunder staff equipped. If it worked it would be very noticible on the parse.

Appreciate the suggestion - though damage I didn't have a question on. I don't use a parser, however, so unfortunately the second part would be difficult. Again, thank you for the suggestions, though.

[noodles355]

If you are on a PC it wouldn't be difficult. It is not remotely complicated. The best and most maintained parser is kparser, google it and you can download it from a googledocs site. Unzip it and run the program whilst FFXI is running. Click Windows and select "Offence" tab. Click "start dfault parse". It's really that simple.

[Annahya]

If you are on a PC it wouldn't be difficult. It is not remotely complicated. The best and most maintained parser is kparser, google it and you can download it from a googledocs site. Unzip it and run the program whilst FFXI is running. Click Windows and select "Offence" tab. Click "start dfault parse". It's really that simple.

I appreciate the heads up, and a couple LSmates have been trying to get me to for a while - but it is not that I cannot, or don't know how, but rather because I choose not to use 3rd party programs like Windower and parsers. Certainly useful info for others, though - so thank you again.

[Alkalinehoe]

I appreciate the heads up, and a couple LSmates have been trying to get me to for a while - but it is not that I cannot, or don't know how, but rather because I choose not to use 3rd party programs like Windower and parsers. Certainly useful info for others, though - so thank you again.
Windower I guess I can understand, but all parsers is helping you do is not having to record on pen and paper how many crits you did.

[Lumiya]

It is still against the ToS though, regardless of how harmless and useful it is. To Annahya, the problem with trying to find a source is this information is extremely old. I actually think it may even be older than the wiki itself; when the original testing was done. If anything I would suggest trying allakhazam(if it still exists.)

[noodles355]

On the scale of good to bad 3rd party tools, it ranks up there close to Fraps. You remember fraps? By definition it's a 3rd party tool which is against SE's ToS, and yet it was required to enter that FFXI video contest they did a few years back.

[Babekeke]

Kparser is no more a 3rd party tool than FFXIAH is. They both take information from the game and make it easily accessable.

You use FFXIAH don't you?

[Annahya]

On the scale of good to bad 3rd party tools, it ranks up there close to Fraps. You remember fraps? By definition it's a 3rd party tool which is against SE's ToS, and yet it was required to enter that FFXI video contest they did a few years back.

That is interesting - it seems that while any program that records information between SE and the user is against the ToS, they have established a precedent that they only are interested in enforcing this restriction when it is something that directly impacts your play, and the advantage you have over other players (Spellcast, et al.).


Kparser is no more a 3rd party tool than FFXIAH is. They both take information from the game and make it easily accessable. You use FFXIAH don't you?

I do, so I suppose this is the inappropriate gray area in my stance - I am interested in reading parsed data, and I do use FFXIAH, so I suppose my stance on 3rd party tools is a touch hypocritical.

These things considered, I may start using kparser, as I would really to examine my own performance with a tool like this. We will see. Thank you all for the info, regardless.

[Lumiya]

On the scale of good to bad 3rd party tools, it ranks up there close to Fraps. You remember fraps? By definition it's a 3rd party tool which is against SE's ToS, and yet it was required to enter that FFXI video contest they did a few years back.

I kind of have to do disagree with this. There is a difference in the comparison. In one example, a website that I have no affiliation with is pulling information from the game and posting it on the internet, whether I use it or not. In the other, I am running the program that is pulling information from the game, for my own personal benefit. It is all irrelevant to me though, I play on PS2 these days, so any third party tool use is impossible.

Edit: To noodles, I also don't ever remember a contest where SE told people to violate their ToS. I will admit I've never payed much attention to contests, but you are saying a digital camera+tripod would of made your video submission inelidgable? It had to be done using fraps?

[esoR]

fraps was recommended, and i dont think you could compete using off screen footage vs everyoone else using ingame recording.

as for the parser argument, you aren't giving yourself a distinct advantage over other players. you are merely recording data. there is no distinct difference between someone who parses and someone who doesn't, other than knowledge on how you performed in a fight.

[noodles355]

The only thing is I'm unsure if you can run the parser without windower, if you can I'd say give it a look. If you can't and you require windower then it's up to you. They do do a windower lite, which doesn't have any of the plugins or features, but as far as your philosophy it is a 3rd party tool, and although you choose not to make it affect your game play, there option is there, I can understand if you didn't take it.

Not saying I run windower, it'd be dumb to admit the use of 3rd party tools on the official forum >.>. Assume everything above was made on the assumptions of "If we used XYZ we could do ABC".

[esoR]

you can run it without

[Arcon]

In the end, what matters is your conscience and that only. If you think you have an unfair advantage over others and that bothers you, then don't use it. If you don't mind an unfair advantage, as long as it's not competitive (claimbots, fleehacks, wallhacks, etc.), then that's ok too. If you don't mind an unfair advantage at all, that's your choice as well. Just need to make up your mind about what kind of person you want to be, the rules rarely matter. Breaking rules is not necessarily bad, they're not an universal doctrine for good behaviour, they're just an approximation proposed by some SE employees. You can follow the rules and still be a dick and you can break them and still be a good person. Law doesn't equal justice and it never did. You can follow rules if you agree with them, but if you blindly follow them, then you missed the point.

[Fyreus]

Now, if only more Rngs knew and understood this. Would make for a lot less crappy RNGs out there.

Wasn't this discovered back in 2005? lol

[Fyreus]

It is still against the ToS though, regardless of how harmless and useful it is. To Annahya, the problem with trying to find a source is this information is extremely old. I actually think it may even be older than the wiki itself; when the original testing was done. If anything I would suggest trying allakhazam(if it still exists.)

Also the reason third party tools are against ToS is because people were using scripts and we asked SE to ban bot use. Know what they did? They banned any and everything just to shut us up. True story. Ask anyone who's been around for a while what the Special Task Force Unit that was formed (in the same announcement mind you) has done and how their stance on windower use has changed over time.

[VZX]

Wasn't this discovered back in 2005? lol
Yea, it's more like a buried knowledge than a new discovery.

Probably if people remember about "which katana to main-hand on NIN? Senjuinrikio or Fudo?" that were asked numerous time to the point people went /facepalm or notto dis sitto ageen whenever the question was asked, you know how people take it as a general knowledge back in that day.

[Myrrh]

I have yet to see a RNG with Jupiter's staff so there can't be too many out there. There's hardly any RNG's out there at all these days.
If you are going to carp on RNG's for something, why not use the old standby, "Quit using cheap ammo!". You're more likely to see a RNG using Demon arrows than a RNG usng Jupiters staff.

On Quetz and on Carbuncle I've seen numerous people use Jupiters Staff and they tell me I'm wrong when I try explain to them that the Crit incrase Crit only applies to the main weapon. Some people just don't want to learn.




Wasn't this discovered back in 2005? lol

And yet, here we are.